ࡱ> e bjbjJJ (_b(_bт&6 6 6 6 6 $Z Z Z P < Z 4f""("""###;4=4=4=4=4=4=4$"68a46 %##%%a46 6 ""v4222%h6 "6 ";42%;4222" $|6z'.2'44042~9/~92~96 2,#Z$@2_$4$,###a4a40###4%%%%~9#########B : John C. Liebeskind History of Pain Collection Oral History Interview with Louisa E. Jones Ms. Coll. no. 127.18 Conducted: 11 July 1993 Interviewer: John C. Liebeskind Duration: ca. 3.0 hours Pages: iv, 64 History & Special Collections for the Sciences UCLA Library Special Collections Los Angeles, California 90095-1798 1997, revised 2016 Biographical Sketch Louisa E. Jones was born in Watertown, New York, and was raised in Brooklyn and in Seattle, Washington. She studied history and political science at Seattle University and at Fordham University in the Bronx, graduating from Fordham in 1962. She spent some years traveling and working in administration and computer programming before returning in Seattle in 1967 and accepting a position as manuscripts secretary (later publications editor) in the Department of Anesthesiology at the University of Washington, where she met John J. Bonica. In 1972, Dr. Bonica recruited Ms. Jones to assist with preparations for the Issaquah meeting, and in 1973, to help launch the newly formed (IASP). Ms. Jones work as IASP Treasurer, from 1973 to 1983, evolved into a full-time job and is recognized by the membership as essential to the organization's success. In 1976, she was a member of the organizing committee of the American Pain Society (APS) and served on the first Board of Directors. Since 1984, she has served as Executive Director of IASP, and in 1993, became managing editor of IASP Press. Louisa Jones retired from the IASP in 2006. Interview History Ms. Louisa Jones was interviewed at her home in Seattle by John C. Liebeskind on July 11, 1993. The interview lasted approximately 3 hours. The transcript was audit-edited by Marcia L. Meldrum and reviewed by Ms. Jones prior to its accession by the History of Pain Collection. The tape and transcript are in the public domain, by agreement with the oral author. The original recordings, consisting of three (3) 90-minute audiotapes, are in the Library holdings and are available under the regulations governing the use of permanent noncurrent records. Records relating to the interview are located in the offices of History & Special Collections for the Sciences in UCLA Library Special Collections. Topical Outline (Scope and Content Note) The interview is organized chronologically and then topically, beginning with Ms. Jones meeting with John Bonica in 1967 and work with him at the University of Washington and in IASP; the Issaquah meeting and the formation of the pain field. Ms. Jones then briefly discusses her family and childhood before continuing with her work and experiences in IASP; Bonica's contributions and those of subsequent presidents; her friendships with many members; the formation of APS and of the International Pain Foundation; her own contributions to the pain field. Major topics of interest include: the "special" quality of the pain field; reminiscences of John Bonica, Ronald Melzack, Patrick Wall, and John Loeser; the Issaquah meeting; the Florence, Montreal, and Adelaide Congresses Access to the Interview This oral history interview, in its audio and transcript forms, is held by History & Special Collections for the Sciences, a division of UCLA Library Special Collections located in the Louise M. Darling Biomedical Library. Those wishing to use the printed transcript or the audiocassette version (which is available by appointment only) should contact: History & Special Collections for the Sciences, UCLA Library Special Collections, Louise M. Darling Biomedical Library, Los Angeles, California 90095-1798. Phone: (310) 825-6940. Terms and Conditions of Use By agreement with the oral author (interviewee), the contents of this interview are placed in the public domain and are made available for use by anyone who seeks to broaden the understanding of pain. However, users must fully and properly cite the source of quotations they excerpt from this interview (see Citation Information). Citation Information The preferred citation for excerpts from this interview is: Oral History Interview with Louisa E. Jones, 11 July 1993 (Ms. Coll. no. 127.18), John C. Liebeskind History of Pain Collection, History & Special Collections for the Sciences, UCLA Library Special Collections. Related Materials in the Liebeskind Collection The reader is referred to the following related materials: Oral history interview with John J.Bonica (LSC-Biomed Ms. Coll. no. 127.7); IASP records (LSC-Biomed Ms. Coll. no. 124). Editorial Note The interview transcript has been annotated -- with notes offset in [square brackets] -- to clarify and enhance the readers understanding of the concepts and events described, but as sparsely as possible, so as not to interrupt the flow of the oral authors thoughts. By and large, the transcript is a record of the oral authors ideas and recollections in his own words. Acknowledgments Support for the John C. Liebeskind History of Pain Collection and its Oral History Program came from the American Pain Society and the . . [PHOTO PORTRAIT NEEDED] Louisa E. Jones IASP Founding Secretary LOUISA E. JONES INTERVIEW TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE JOHN C. LIEBESKIND: This is July 11, 1993, and I am interviewing Louisa Jones at her home. Were upstairs in a beautiful room that Louisa has added to her house, with lots of light, and its a rainy day in Seattle, one of those rare events. Louisa, I have a bunch of questions here that Ive prepared, thinking about what we might discuss. Id like to start by just asking you to tell me how you first came to be associated with the field of pain; I assume it had to do with JJB, or maybe not -- could you tell me where did you first come into the field of pain? LOUISA E. JONES: I first met Dr. Bonica in 1967, and at that time I had moved back out to Seattle and I was thinking of going into nursing. I had been out of college a couple of years and had traveled around Europe, and recouped my finances and moved back out to Seattle, which is where I had lived with my aunt for many years. LIEBESKIND: Youre from JONES: Brooklyn, New York -- East New York, Brooklyn. So I decided in order to get an idea of whether I really wanted nursing or some sort of medicine, something in the medical field, that I would get a job in the medical school. The job I got was as a manuscript secretary in the anesthesiology department, working directly for Dr. Bonica and other faculty members. LIEBESKIND: He was the chairman. JONES: He was the chairman, right. And at that time, the first book... LIEBESKIND: What year was this again? JONES: 1967. It was May, 1967. LIEBESKIND: Had you gotten this job from the east, or you came out here to look for a job? JONES: No. Basically it was just a secretarial job. And the book that I was working on, that I started in on was the second volume of his book on obstetric analgesia and anesthesia. And at the time I was hired, he was away from the office on one of his trips. And they told me that I would like him a lot and he was very nice, but that he had a fairly strong Italian accent. And I remember thinking at the time that, well, that will be interesting because I love meeting foreigners and I dont have trouble understanding people with accents -- I have a good ear and I really worked at it. So a week later finally he was back in town and I was introduced to him. We started talking and I started to chuckle. He said, you know, What are you laughing at? And I said, Well, they told me when I started here that you had a very strong Italian accent. It sounds like a New York accent to me. His immediate response was, I dont have an Italian accent. But he knew...[they laugh] LIEBESKIND: He doesnt. JONES: No, he doesnt, he never did. But the people out here couldnt recognize the difference. So he said,Well, how did you recognize that? I said, Im from Brooklyn. He said, What part? and I said East New York, and thats very close to where his family lived. At that time his older sister Mary lived one station on the El, or 10 blocks, from my family home in Brooklyn. So immediately he and I had something in common. We knew what the drill was like, in how you got around the city, and all the other things that happen in that city. It helped in our working relationship because its like you had an element of old friendship in it. LIEBESKIND: So you were just a few years out of college at this time, and what had you studied in college? I always thought you had been an English major or something, because you got right into editorial work. JONES: No. I majored in political science and economics and I minored in history and philosophy, and went to Fordham. LIEBESKIND: Thats a lot of subjects. Thats like four different subjects. JONES: Well, it is. I really have a very broad liberal education up to the bachelors degree. And I graduated... LIEBESKIND: This was where, at Fordham? JONES: ...from Fordham. LIEBESKIND: By the way my friend Janeti is a graduate of Fordham. JONES: Is he really? Yeah, Fordham University in the Bronx. At a time when they didnt allow women in the college, so you had to sort of -- there were other ways you got in. You had to go through other programs, but not take some of the specified courses and that sort of thing. So, for example, a lot of my courses were through the School of Education but I didnt take any of the education courses, and that kind of thing. But anyway, about a year after I joined the department and I was given a new position, which was a new position at the University, called publications editor [later, editor of research publications]. LIEBESKIND: This is how I recall you. Now, had you had any science in college, because here you are in a medical school... JONES: No, I hadnt... LIEBESKIND: Youre always doing editorial work with all this language, this medical terminology. JONES: Well, I had had biology and also I had worked, when I was in high school and even in college, I had worked a lot as a nurses aide in the hospitals, so I had some familiarity with that. And the other thing is, I looked up every word. LIEBESKIND: And remembered it. JONES: Well, and remembered it because part of -- Im always interested in what Im working on, and so its much easier for me to do work accurately if I can understand the terminology or something about it. And even though you dont understand it all, as you work on it over and over and over again, your subconscious picks up a lot of it, you know, and you find that later on it comes out in the right fashion, at least thats whats happened to me. LIEBESKIND: You learn some of this stuff by osmosis. JONES: Thats right. Gradually Dr. Bonica was doing less and less of the OB and the regional anesthesia sort of stuff and more pain was creeping in. And then the period between 1967 and 1973, when IASP was founded, its a six-year period, so that was, you know, just sort of educative, I guess. And then he organized this pain meeting in Issaquah. LIEBESKIND: Well, I want to hear a lot about that. Let me think of what more you can tell me before that. What was it like working for JJB in those years? JONES: Well, it was fine. He and I got along very well, and he -- one of the things, and this probably has helped me in my role in IASP, is that hes the type of person who will, who just wants you to do your work, and he will give you all the lead you need. I mean, he doesnt keep a tight string on you. LIEBESKIND: He doesnt micromanage. JONES: Right. As long as youre doing it, and doing it right. The way I learned very early to do it right is, always ask questions when youre not sure about something. Because if youre asking the question, then the person knows youre thinking about what youre doing. That was kind of automatic for me, but it was not the way people in my capacity -- you know, the sort of clerical staff, normally worked with someone like him. LIEBESKIND: Theyre too deferential, theyre afraid... JONES: A lot of people were afraid of him. As soon as he sensed that somebody was afraid of him, it hampered the communication. I never had that because -- maybe I always think I was too stupid to be afraid of him because he was an interesting person and we had this commonness, this common background. I mean, it wasnt completely common, but there were enough elements that we knew about one another already, so that finding-out part was already taken care of. It was a lot of hard work because also during that period, the very next year as a matter of fact, the department got the first of the Anesthesia Research Center grants from NIH, and that was a big work getting the grant together, that was a big five-year program and it was one of four in the country, something like that. LIEBESKIND: You were involved in that, in the grant? JONES: Yes, involved in a lot of the grant preparation. When that was awarded, then there was more growth in the department. LIEBESKIND: New people came in, fellows, and so forth... JONES: Right. And actually, I didnt work just for Dr. Bonica, I worked for the whole department. So I dealt with an even wider variety of subjects. LIEBESKIND: Was Ray Fink there at that time, when you arrived? JONES: Yeah, he was there. LIEBESKIND: You were quite close with him too, right? JONES: Well, at first I didnt really interact with him very much. Later on there were some writings and things, and when IASP had been founded and he was involved in the leadership of that, you know, we communicated a little more. Hes not the easiest person to communicate with, and tends to be a little bit, I dont know what you want to say -- level-conscious. LIEBESKIND: Sort of patrician, courtly even. But he has a little vertical thing, too? JONES: Yes, a stepladder, and clerical is pretty low on the totem pole. I wasnt anybody that he would ever particularly pay any real attention to, you know, and thats fine, because -- I wasnt working with him directly on anything at that time. Things he was writing, hes such a good writer, and has such a wonderful command of English, because he has that extended vocabulary that so many English people have, above which a lot of Americans dont have, that his writing was always very, very good anyway. LIEBESKIND: In general, by contrast, Bonica is so much a man of the people, hes a common man, isnt he. He has a real strong sense of that, sort of that fundamental democracy that a lot of poor immigrants had when they arrived that way -- wouldnt you say? JONES: Yes, right. That and the idea that you could -- the sky was the limit in America. And it probably was more so at that period in the 20s, than it certainly is today or has been since the Second World War, for example. But yes, you just had to put in the hard work. And I can remember the long working hours started in pretty quickly because there was always something. And the case in my working with Dr. Bonica was, that the more I did, the more there was for me to do, or the other things that I could help out on. LIEBESKIND: You got better at what you were doing, more knowledgeable, more indispensable. JONES: Right. And fortunately, from my point of view, I was never in the situation of being his secretary. I always was working on things which were more interesting to me, the manuscripts and the writing, the learning aspect of it for me was nice. But, I mean, there were just quite a few years of very regular stuff going on in there, the same sort of thing. LIEBESKIND: You got to know him somewhat personally, too -- you went over to his home and that sort of thing -- JONES: Yeah, working on some projects and trying to help him keep his home office and his journals and books and files and that stuff in order -- that was one of the things that I could help him out with some. And that spread over a period of time. LIEBESKIND: Did you get friendly at all with his family at that time, with Emma, with the children? The children must have still been at home then, right? JONES: Yeah, they were. The year that I started working for him was the year Johnny, thats the youngest, which is his son, graduated from high school, and I think Angela was in college. I knew the children some. It was a stressful time for the kids because they really didnt have access to him. LIEBESKIND: He was away, he was busy so much... JONES: They had never had that much access to him. LIEBESKIND: Bill Fordyce told the story yesterday in talking about Alf Nachemson, how he visited his office and he saw a sign on the wall that his secretary had put up that said God is everywhere. Alf Nachemson is everywhere but Gothenburg. [They laugh] I think you could say the same about Bonica. Everywhere but Seattle. JONES: Yeah. I can always remember how he would say, Next summer. The weather is always so beautiful in Seattle during the summer. Next summer were not going anywhere during the summer. I want to stay here and enjoy it -- we have a boat, we have the water and we have this and we want to enjoy it. And it never happened. Never, never happened. LIEBESKIND: He was living at that time at the same house he is now. JONES: Thats right. They moved into that house in 1961, right. And I did have one spell, one period during that when I babysat the house for them for six weeks or so. LIEBESKIND: Really? That must have been fun. JONES: You had the dogs -- there were three dogs, I think, and a couple of cats -- yeah; fortunately the cleaning lady came in a couple of times a week or something. But it was just to have somebody in the house. LIEBESKIND: The kids werent there? JONES: No, none of the kids was there. They were at various -- That was about 1972 and that was -- they were away at school -- some of them were even traveling with him, I believe. They were in Europe at the time. LIEBESKIND: So was it your experience when you were working with him at that time, you too were left alone a lot, just as his children were -- you were working on projects that were important but he wasnt around a lot. JONES: Yeah. LIEBESKIND: Was that at all a problem, or did you work so independently -- JONES: Yes. It wasnt really a problem. I did work independently and I was able to communicate with him as necessary through periodic phone calls hed make when he was on a trip -- I would always keep my list of questions ready, and that sort of thing, and really didnt have a lot of problems. Things ran pretty smoothly. It seemed to work for me because my interest was kept up. He always used to say, Oh, you know, you are just so wonderful, and this and that and I really want to, Id like to adopt you. [Liebeskind laughs] And Id say, Well, you cant adopt me because I already have parents and a family. Yes, but I know, but, youre just like one of my children and I want to adopt you. So I think thats how he relates with Nino too -- Nino Benedetti. But its nice to have a working relationship like that. Its other side was that, at least I felt this, that Dr. Bonica periodically distresses other people, like faculty members about this and that, and sometimes its justifiable, you can see it right there and think, you know -- often there were a few situations, two people in particular that I can think of over the years -- who I felt would put pressure on me as a way to get back to him. Instead of reacting directly to him, they would try to make my life miserable as a way to punish him. LIEBESKIND: Its a safe way. JONES: Yeah, a safe way to punish him. LIEBESKIND: They couldnt really go after him directly. JONES: I dont want to call it punishment, but just to get back or whatever the heck it is, that human thing that goes on when you do that, and I wont mention any names. LIEBESKIND: Probably one of them would have been Dick Black. I know he had a very rough time with Bonica. JONES: No, he wasnt one of them. I didnt interact with Dick Black that much. One of them was a former office manager and the other one was a chairman. Yeah, but I weathered that. LIEBESKIND: Why would he have trouble with people? It was just his strong personality, would you say? JONES: Well, partially his strong personality, but also he was traveling so much that he would impose on people to do things that he really should have been there doing. And certainly early on he probably wasnt carrying as great a percentage of the clinical role as he should have been, so someone else had to do for that, but at the same time he was collecting the -- probably, I dont know -- fees and that sort of thing. I mean, that kind of thing -- you know, well, you have to do this for me, and its difficult. LIEBESKIND: Theres no currency for the general acquiring of fame. I mean, when you run around the world being famous, you know, John Bonica made the department of anesthesiology at Washington so famous, but that took a lot of wandering around to do it, I suppose. JONES: Well, he was famous before he got there. His name was known because of that book [The Management of Pain] that was published in 1953. This is fully eight years before he became chairman of anesthesia. Now prior to that, anesthesia was a division of surgery, so this was the first chair of -- LIEBESKIND: He was the founding chairman. JONES: He was the founding chairman, right. And so it was a real growth situation. And of course the city of Seattle was also already on the map in the anesthesia field because Danny Moore -- Daniel Moore at Virginia Mason had in 1955 published his book on regional anesthesia, which became the bible for that. So these two names were known. LIEBESKIND: He had been here? JONES: Yes, he was at Virginia Mason Hospital in Seattle. And so both Seattle, the name Seattle, and anesthesia in Seattle, was already -- the city was already known. LIEBESKIND: Did you know him? JONES: Danny Moore? Yeah. He was a very good friend of Dr. Bonicas because of course they were both in regional anesthesia. Daniel Moore. But he was not at the University -- he was at Virginia Mason Hospital, which is one of the -- its a non-university affiliated hospital. And he retired a couple of years ago -- same age as Dr. Bonica -- but he really took down his shingle. He really retired. He still does a little bit, but not anything connected directly with the University or Virginia Mason Hospital -- he just does what he wants to do. So I think they sort of fortified one another in that sense, of putting the city on the map. And then getting the Anesthesia Research Center in 68. LIEBESKIND: That was the first one of its kind. JONES: One of the first ones, and then it was renewed again in 1973. LIEBESKIND: You had a lot to do in 1973. JONES: Yes, I did. Except I was too stupid to know it. Now can I start in with 1973? LIEBESKIND: Absolutely. Lets talk about that -- the preparations for it. JONES: Well, he was working on the preparations, inviting speakers and trying to round up some money for this meeting in Issaquah. I think the only meeting that had been held prior to that of a similar nature, but maybe a little more to the basic sciences, was one that Ainsley Iggo had organized in 1971, maybe -- LIEBESKIND: Pain, Itch...? JONES: Something like that. LIEBESKIND: That was just neurophysiology. I dont think there was anything clinical there. That was just a thin little book. JONES: Right. But that meeting had been the first one of an international scope dedicated to the pain thing, and I think Dr. Bonica was able to attract a lot of the basic scientists who were at that meeting to this one, and then he also -- this is one thing I need to say about Dr. Bonica: He probably, as far as I can evaluate it, and Im not the right person to do this, is not a great researcher. But what he has an ability that not too many people have, is to synthesize information instantaneously and draw accurate conclusions, he can see the trends, he can see -- he can synthesize huge amounts of material and digest them in a way that leads to the next step in a very efficient way. LIEBESKIND: Youre very perceptive in saying that -- I think youre absolutely right. Its not something I would have thought to have characterized him as, but now that I think about it, youre absolutely right. And these books, all the books that hes done... JONES: And the meetings. Thats what the meetings were. And thats what Im getting at. He could draw from Iggos meeting for the basic scientists and maybe a few personal contacts, but for the clinical, he had that all synthesized. He knew who all the people were in the world that were doing good clinical research, or you know, and that takes quite a bit, the synthesis, because were talking about the days before Medlars and everything else. It means youre just picking it up -- everything you read youre picking up -- ah, remember that, this guy is... LIEBESKIND: You file it efficiently in a drawer in your brain. JONES: Thats right. And I think thats how he was able to get such a lively group together. So he was doing all of that. I never worked in any kind of meeting organization before. Then it came to having to register people and, well, here, you do this. So, well, here, I did that. LIEBESKIND: Hold on -- before you start registering people -- I want to know more. You go too fast now; I want more details. JONES: Well I dont have a lot of details, John. LIEBESKIND: Well, hold on now. Lets talk about Issaquah itself. How did that happen? Did he find that, did you find that place? JONES: I didnt find it. He found it and I suspect that probably the University of Washington had maybe suggested that as one of the sort of meeting sites thats available. Issaquah was the -- Providence Heights was the name of it, and it was owned by the Sisters of Providence, a Catholic order of nuns, which is nursing nuns. They run several hospitals in this region - Providence Hospital here in Seattle and another one in Everett, thirty miles north of here. That was their college, or novitiate -- you know, the contemplative sort of year you do before your college -- and it was a full complex for living, schooling, athletics -- and it was out in undeveloped -- top of a hill, sort of a plateau twenty miles east of Seattle. LIEBESKIND: How did we get out there? I dont remember. Did we take buses or something? JONES: We arranged to have vans, a van scheduled from the airport. LIEBESKIND: Why would it have been that the sisters made that available for conferences? I assume they had done that before --this was not the first time. JONES: They hadnt done too many before, but it was at the beginning of the period when vocations were dropping off and they were still trying to maintain the facility and their income was going down. So they had decided to try it. LIEBESKIND: What do you mean by vocations dropping off? JONES: Vocations are people who are interested in entering, or becoming nuns. A vocation is somebody who decides my vocation in life is to be a nun, my vocation is to be a doctor, my vocation is to be a -- people who say, Here I am, I want to join your order, sign me up. LIEBESKIND: New initiates. JONES: It was really the beginning of that period. So they were trying to -- because its a fairly large physical plant to maintain. Because they also had a number of the older retired or semiretired nuns, so they used it, so these nuns were the ones who could still work and do a lot of the bookkeeping, and it was what they called the mother house for this region, which meant the highest ranking Mother Superior was in residence there, and they managed all the financial affairs and business affairs of all their activities here. LIEBESKIND: Did any of them participate in the meeting? I dont remember that. JONES: They did not. You mean as scientific sort of registrants? LIEBESKIND: Or in the audience or anything? JONES: I dont think so. What they had done was, to hire some lay people to run that conference center and that was primarily my liaison working on arrangements, was with the lay people who were doing that and they were very nice. LIEBESKIND: When was the meeting? Was it in June? JONES: No, it was May 22nd to May 26th, 1973. If I remember, it was fairly decent weather most of the time. I think we did plan an outdoor barbecue that turned out to be an indoor barbecue or something, but -- LIEBESKIND: I remember the Bonicas had two successive dinners over at their home and invited vast numbers of people -- I was invited to one of those -- probably all the speakers. JONES: Yeah, I think they did, but there really were quite a few speakers. LIEBESKIND: Over a hundred or so -- JONES: Yeah, one-third of the people there were speakers, almost. And we did -- I mean, the only interaction with the nuns was, the nuns were doing all the cooking. And this is one of the features of the meeting that helped make it -- being isolated like that, people had to have, I mean, they were pretty much forced to communicate with one another... LIEBESKIND: Nowhere to go. Except Bill Mehler ... JONES: ... And Bill Noordenbos -- the two of them went together ... LIEBESKIND: ... To go fishing. JONES: Right. There were two of them. And they caught a fish -- they caught a big fish, which Sister Marguerite, who was the main cook, allowed them to put in her cooler, and they could go in the kitchen and look at it when they wanted to, and kiss it if they had to, which I saw Bill Mehler do once. LIEBESKIND: [Laughs] He was a funny guy. He was a very amusing guy. JONES: Yeah. But the way the meals were, they were served what you would have to call cafeteria style -- you went through the line and everybody -- we all sat at big long tables as though we were in a cafeteria. So it was virtually impossible at the main meal functions to pair off with just one person. There was this enforced communication that, whereas the neurosurgeons might have stuck with their pal neurosurgeons, it was really like a start of sort of this multidisciplinary interaction in a way you dont normally have. LIEBESKIND: That was interesting. It was symbolic of what the whole thing was about anyway -- interdisciplinary, the mingling of people. It wasnt planned that way on purpose, I assume... JONES: No. LIEBESKIND: ...but it just worked out. JONES: Yeah, and the other interesting thing about it was the food was just your basic good food, which is what most people eat at home anyway. So they tended to be more casual in the eating situations. I mean, to the extent, and I remember this specifically because one night we had a sort of a fancier dinner and -- I think they put tablecloths on the tables or something --and we had roast beef -- prime rib -- and at the end of the meal Sister Marguerite put out a big plateful of rib bones and everybody went up and got stacks of bones and they sat at their tables munching the bones. And that flattered Sister Marguerite to no end. Sister Marguerite was a case in herself, because she is from a town in Quebec called Trois Pistoles. Ron Melzack is the one who found this out. When he found out -- because this order of nuns is originally a French Canadian order, and so thats why -- and she loved it. Everybody loved her food so much and she -- I remember her making this comment to me -- she said, You know, all these bigwigs here, theyre all coming up to me and telling me how much they like my food. She said, Nobodys ever done that before. I said, Well, this is a special group of people. So she in turn just tried to make everything the best she could for people. LIEBESKIND: You know, you say that, a special group of people. We all have that sense from the beginning, havent we, that we were kind of a special group of people, in the sense of being friendly and nice to one another and kind of fun and more relaxed, not stuffy. I mean, Ive heard this as recently as this year, talking to the Bristol-Myers people, who have all these different programs in the different areas -- pain is only one of them. And they will tell us, You know, you guys are really very different from all the rest. You guys are so friendly. Youre the only group to ever say thank you and so forth. What is there -- youve been in this thing now for 20 years, you know -- what is this group thing? JONES: Well, Ive thought about that because I hear that too -- this meeting is different. LIEBESKIND: Is this chance? JONES: No, it isnt just chance. I think its basic. I think that its because its multidisciplinary. Because we will have a meeting, and the guy from this field has no idea that the guy from the other field is the big head honcho in the field. Hes just somebody at the meeting. But if it were all, lets just say, it were all neurologists, they would all be following around the one that was perceived or trying to be -- there would be the whole pecking order. But here you have twenty or thirty types -- I mean you could have twenty or thirty specialty meetings out of the background from which all of these people come. Its impossible for anybody to know what the pecking order is. I mean, you get a slight pecking order in that everybody knows Bonicas name, and everybody knows Wall, and everybody knows Melzack, and there are a few names, and they -- you know, but even the entourage is not just their specialty -- its everything. I think because of that, first of all, everybody knows its multidisciplinary, and so people have more of -- theyve made more of a mental choice, or even a physical choice, to listen to what the other guy says. Everybody sort of made a commitment that the only way we are going to get anywhere in the pain field is if we listen to what others outside of our specialty say -- because obviously our specialty isnt finding all the answers. I attribute it to an openness because of the multidisciplinary nature of it. LIEBESKIND: I dont suppose pain is unique as a field in terms of this multidisciplinary, but certainly at that time, there werent very many others. We must have been at least among the pioneers encouraging that kind of multidisciplinary... JONES: I would think so. And Im not sure, if you just ... LIEBESKIND: ... My own personal experience was that this was unique -- I would go to psychology meetings or whatever, but here was pain, and that was the only place where I got all these different kinds of people -- and that was before the Society for Neuroscience even. JONES: Yeah. But even the Society for Neuroscience is not as multidisciplinary as pain is. LIEBESKIND: Oh no, not at all. JONES: But if you try to think of what else would be like that, its a little bit difficult, it really is. LIEBESKIND: Now that I think about it, I think the Society for Neuroscience had its first meeting in 1971. JONES: Yes. It was founded several years before IASP. LIEBESKIND: But as you said, you dont get the clinical side of things so much. JONES: And the other thing I would say is I recently had this conversation with somebody about the multidisciplinary meetings. The value to a psychologist who is an academic psychologist, who knows whats going on in the psychology field -- is not that they can go to the psychology sessions during the congress and listen to stuff they already know. This is a meeting where they can hear that if they want to, but they can also go to some of the things that are close to their field that are not normally covered at their specialty meetings, and that they really want to learn more about, and they can hear it from the experts. They can pick as wide a range as they want at our meetings, and they can make a choice because they dont absolutely have to go to every session because its psychology, you see. Thats the real value of it. I can remember just an anecdote -- this happens to have been an American Pain Society meeting, but I saw Harold Merskey and Kathy Foley sitting down in the hallway between sessions, and they were chatting for a few minutes, and Harold and I were going to have a meeting or something. He said, Oh, thanks for waiting, Louisa. This ten minutes I spent with Kathy Foley is worth the whole trip. You see, well, ones a neurologist and ones a psychiatrist. One works in cancer pain, the other doesnt particularly work in cancer pain. But there was something. LIEBESKIND: Something happened. JONES: Something happened relating to the pain field that did it. And so I suspect that a lot of that type of communication goes on as well. You can have the basic scientist who happens to see a poster or hear somebody, a clinician, say -- and you can go and say, well, tell me a little more about this because I think Ive seen something like that. LIEBESKIND: If you just open the journal Pain today, so many of the basic science articles that the neuroscientists are working on are on clinical problems. Theyre on the subject of models of neuropathic pain. Where did that come from? JONES: Yes, where did it come from and where is it going? There was a lot of that at the Scandinavian-British joint meeting in Edinburgh this year, and there was a certain amount of conflict between transferring it over ... LIEBESKIND: To the clinic. Sure, there always will be. People saying, Well, you guys showed that in the rats, we tried that in people, and it doesnt work. ... JONES: Yeah, where does it come from, this idea? LIEBESKIND: It comes from this rubbing shoulders with the clinical. JONES: Right. And certainly there has been a theme that I can see as a, lets say an educated layman in the pain field, that to try to encourage the basic scientist to spend some time in the clinical setting -- LIEBESKIND: Absolutely. JONES: Not just necessarily randomly, but to see, to maybe spend a little bit of time with a neurologist -- I especially think of the neurologist because of something like neuropathic pain, which is one of the areas thats ... LIEBESKIND: A hot topic. JONES: Well, but so difficult. LIEBESKIND: As you look back on that Issaquah meeting, you must have met a lot of these people for the first time. I mean, you knew some of them... JONES: I didnt really know any of them. LIEBESKIND: You didnt know any of the people at that time? JONES: Well, just the local ones. LIEBESKIND: Are there, sort of personal episodes that you recall with great pleasure from that meeting -- did you get sort of friendly with anyone in particular at that meeting -- Ron Melzack or Bill Mehler or whoever? JONES: Well, I got friendly with, of all people, David Bowsher. LIEBESKIND: Oh really? How come? JONES: Well, I dont know. He walked in, said something in his usual sarcastic way, and I laughed my head off, and, you know, wasnt insulted by his sort of pushy kind of stuff, and got to chatting with him. Obviously were not talking scientific chatting, because thats not what I was doing, but you do have the other level of chatting with people. I suppose I never would have thought too much of it, except that I discovered that not everyone got along with him. [they laugh] LIEBESKIND: Oh, he and I are good friends. JONES: No, I mean, people even on the level I was, sort of clerical administrative level, and this and that, and so ever since that time -- to this day we talk about it. I had a wonderful chat with him and Doreen, his wife, in Edinburgh a couple of months ago. We were talking back about Issaquah and many things in between and that sort of thing. There are any number of people that -- I was awfully busy during that meeting, and so was everybody else. LIEBESKIND: There wasnt a lot of free time. JONES: Well, there wasnt a lot of free time, but also because I had to meet everybody. Now, the thing is, having worked on the registration and maybe talked to some of them on the phone, at least I had the names in my head in advance. So you get into that tough situation of putting faces to a lot of names. Probably I was doing more of that than actually establishing any specific special communication or anything like that with somebody. It seems like I always tried to talk to as many people as possible and that sort of thing. But the thing is that many of those people have been active in IASP continuously. Then you get, the next time something comes up, oh yeah, and this and that and you sort of keep a relationship over a longer period of time, and again you start to have things in common, and so youve talked to the person before so you know how they react to this or that. So you know how to approach something to them, or that sort of thing. LIEBESKIND: It was a pretty small family in those days. Its grown some, but the core, the nuclear family for the most part is still together. Weve lost Bill Noordenbos and Bill Mehler ... JONES: ... And Fred Kerr. LIEBESKIND: And Fred Kerr, but not so many others from the Issaquah time -- twenty years, you might have expected there to be more who would have gone. JONES: And this is a silly little thing, but one of the exhibitors at the Issaquah meeting was Radionics from a small firm in Massachusetts that makes stereotaxic equipment and that sort of stuff; Codman I think his name is, Eric Codman, I remember. I met him there and this is a funny thing, because I was working on helping him get the exhibit organized and his secretary -- I spoke to his secretary several times on the phone. LIEBESKIND: Back east? JONES: Yes, back east. On one occasion she said to me, Well, if there are any special events, Im sure that Mr. Codman would be glad to escort you to them. And I said, Oh, well, uh, and I thought, what on earth. So finally I met this Mister Eric Codman and I said, Who is your secretary? And he said, Oh that. Oh, its my mother. [they laugh] LIEBESKIND: She was trying to marry him off. JONES: I dont know what she was trying to do. LIEBESKIND: She said, I dont know who this Louisa Jones is, but she sounds good to me. JONES: Exactly! But where Im going with this is END OF TAPE LOUISA E. JONES INTERVIEW TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO JOHN LIEBESKIND: Were continuing with Eric Codman, and Radionics. LOUISA JONES: I mean, again in Adelaide in 1990, I was busy and I didnt have a chance, but I did leave my card at his booth and got a short note from him afterwards, but theres not any occasion when I dont say hello and there isnt just sort of a little chuckle, remembering that, you know. LIEBESKIND: I dont remember exhibitors there. JONES: There werent very many. LIEBESKIND: Was Raven Press there? They must have been. JONES: Well, Virginia Martin was there. She was the acquisitions editor then, at that time for Raven Press. LIEBESKIND: Not whats-his-name? JONES: Alan Edelson? LIEBESKIND: Alan, yeah. He wasnt at the meeting? JONES: No, but Virginia was there. LIEBESKIND: How about Elsevier -- were they there? JONES: No, because they werent involved in anything yet. LIEBESKIND: Not till later, huh? JONES: Right. But anyway there is a number of that sort of funny little thing. And the other thing, it turns out, I did take photographs. I went around and tried to take a lot of pictures of people. LIEBESKIND: Have you collected them? Are they in a book somewhere? JONES: Yes, well, we have an IASP scrapbook and in point of fact its the twentieth anniversary of IASP this year, so Ulf Lindblom will be using some of those early photographs in his talk in Paris this year -- Im in the process of getting them together for him. Thats kind of fun, to do that. Im just trying to think -- Avery Labs exhibited there and, oh, I remember -- the silly things that you remember -- the bar facilities werent quite what people would have liked them to be, and Im sure the nuns were a little hard-put. And then I remember Martin Orne, who is a psychiatrist from the unit of experimental psychiatry at the University of Pennsylvania, a huge guy -- hes about six foot five and probably weighs about three hundred and fifty pounds, and quite jolly actually. LIEBESKIND: Hes English, too, isnt he? He has some sort of accent. JONES: I dont know. Anyway, his problem was, all the rooms were like cells and he couldnt fit in the bed, he said. He said, Well, its kind of different. But I just remember him -- I dont know if I overheard this conversation or if he was reacting to some paper he heard; it must have been talking about hypnotizing animals. LIEBESKIND: Oh yes. JONES: And of course hypnosis is his area. I remember hearing him say either in a conversation or to me, Well if I were a little chicken and somebody threw me over on my back, and there was like this five-hundred pound thing standing there, he says, you better believe it I wouldnt move. [they laugh] I always remember that because I have this image of this little chicken with its legs sticking up, with somebody like him standing there. He said, I wouldnt move! So you tell me whether thats hypnosis or not, was his point of course. LIEBESKIND: That may have been Giancarlo Carli. He was into animal hypnosis. JONES: Was he? I dont remember offhand if Giancarlo was there. If he was there, I didnt meet him at that time. But I remember Fred Evans and Martin Orne, they sort of were a pair because they were both working at the same place at that time. A few little things like that. And of course, part of where I was coming from at that meeting too was I had heard about some of these people for so long, so it was a real treat for me to finally meet them. I mean, I can remember saying to somebody like Dick Chapman, well now, what does Ron Melzack look like? Because I dont believe I had met Ron Melzack prior to that meeting. And in point of fact I didnt really spend, I didnt talk to him very much because he was awfully busy. A lot of people were busy. LIEBESKIND: He and Pat were the stars. JONES: The stars, yes. Well, and they spent a lot of time talking too, because it was one of these unique opportunities for them to have a few days -- and thats the other thing -- after a couple of days people said, Well, you know, this is like being on a retreat, because the phones werent ringing and this is also in the days before faxes, which is a time to look back at. LIEBESKIND: A blessing! JONES: And there was a nice path you could walk around. After a couple of days people really got into this sort of pensive kind of, quiet, relaxing, almost retreat-like mode, which just helped them get into the science in a way, because there werent any distractions. LIEBESKIND: Oh, it was a stroke of genius to have a meeting in a place like that, a real retreat. Did you sit in on the meetings? Did you hear most of the talks? JONES: Yeah, I sat in on a lot of them, yes. LIEBESKIND: Were there any talks that particularly interested you or that you thought were particularly important? JONES: No, because I wasnt able to be objective enough. I do remember the medical emergency we had, when -- do you remember that? LIEBESKIND: I was just going to ask you about it. Thats one of my most memorable... JONES: But I cant remember -- it was somebody from France who passed out. LIEBESKIND: I thought an Italian, but maybe youre right. JONES: No, it was somebody French who passed out because it was somebody Madame Albe-Fessard knew, who passed out when Ron Melzack showed his trephination in Africa thing. And I remember I was not in the room at that time, because I just had other things to do, and running around. I can remember running around a lot. Long hallways. But thats fine -- its good. LIEBESKIND: Did you have to administer -- I mean, this guy was taken off to the hospital. JONES: Right -- I didnt have to... LIEBESKIND: What was it -- did he have a heart attack or something? He was a young man. JONES: No, he didnt have a heart attack, he just had some kind of extrasystole or something like that, I guess, and they thought it was irregular enough that he should be checked out, I think. LIEBESKIND: Presumably it was his reaction to this very gory film that Ron showed. That was the first time Id seen it -- Ive seen it once or twice since. JONES: And of course, I do remember Pat Wall and Dave Bressler getting off, and I do remember Andrew Chen trying to give his own speech from the seats about the virtues of acupuncture. LIEBESKIND: I dont remember that at all. I sort of vaguely remember Pat being upset by David Bressler. There was somebody else, too, I think -- I think Jacobs gave another one of the acupuncture speeches. JONES: Norm Jacobs from California? LIEBESKIND: He was from California, not from my school. JONES: No, from Northridge, California. LIEBESKIND: Something like that. JONES: Sam Jacobs. LIEBESKIND: Sam Jacobs, I think it was. He later committed suicide, by the way. Thats just a historical footnote; presumably its not related to Pats having attacked him. JONES: No, no. Right, I know. LIEBESKIND: What did Pat say? JONES: I dont know. My knowledge wasnt good enough to pick up on that. LIEBESKIND: He wanted them to withdraw their papers. JONES: That may be. LIEBESKIND: In fact, they did. They were not part of the proceedings. Neither the paper by Jacobs nor by Bressler. Bressler was from UCLA, I knew him very well. In fact, he had gotten his PhD in our department. He was not my student but I had known him. Hes still a controversial person. JONES: Yeah, I guess so. He runs his own institute now, right? LIEBESKIND: Yeah, a big promoter. JONES: Hes not active in IASP anymore, hasnt been for a while. I just thought of something else, but I cant remember what it is. Oh, I was going to say, this is one of these anecdotal things, how some of the younger guys, and this Sam Jacobs reminds me of it because I think he was one of them. They were getting cabin fever, you know, so they had to borrow my car and go into Seattle and go to the movies or something -- I dont know what it was. So I loaned them my car because it was really hard to get into town --there was really no way to go. And I had to take this Marion Smith, who was from England -- I had to take her down to the grocery store, because... LIEBESKIND: She was a friend of Peter Nathans? JONES: Thats right. She was a neurologist. Shes also deceased. She died quite a few years ago. LIEBESKIND: Peter Nathan is still alive. JONES: Hes still alive. But I had to take her down to the grocery store to buy bah-nah-nahs because we have such wonderful bananas in America. [they laugh] LIEBESKIND: She was very nice. JONES: Yes, she was, she was. These are silly little anecdotal things, but they kind of piece together. We had -- I mean, part of what was happening for me, since that was the first meeting I had ever been involved in, is I had to learn on the job, so to speak, I mean, just try to deal with things as they came up. So I was awfully busy with that. I didnt -- As is the case with all our meetings. But what happens now is that throughout the year or year after year I communicate with people, they get to know my name, I get to know their name. Each meeting I put a few more faces with a few more names, and then when we have a congress everybody knows me, and its so difficult to try and talk to everybody. [INTERRUPTION] LIEBESKIND: Louisa, still on the subject of Issaquah, did you have any sense at that time of the importance of the moment, that this was a coming together of the field. I mean, you knew, I assume, that John was planning on starting an organization. JONES: I knew a little bit about it, but I did have a sense of importance, and probably the reason I had it was because of everybodys eagerness and excitability about the meeting itself, because I think people really sort of got into it, and it was like the sense that were really onto something here, you know, of how things need to go -- because it was a very hardcore group in the sense that everybody was just really pushing. But I can remember one thing Pat Wall said -- close to the end of the meeting, he said, This is almost even too much science for me. LIEBESKIND: Is that right? JONES: Yeah. And that speaks to the intensity and the ideas that were flying around in those several days. LIEBESKIND: Well, there was quite a bit of work being done in the field and it hadnt come together. People hadnt talked about it. JONES: It hadnt come together, thats it, and a lot of the excitement was coming from that, and of course everybody immediately saw the value, I guess. LIEBESKIND: Had Bonica discussed with you at all in advance that he was going to propose the creation of a society -- had he asked you, for example, to be part of that, to be involved. JONES: No, he hadnt really discussed it with me. He had mentioned... LIEBESKIND: Because you were involved with the IASP from the beginning, right? In other words, you were -- what would you be -- did you have a title? JONES: This is what I was going to say -- he said, Well, now were going to start this and youll have to take care of it. LIEBESKIND: [Laughs] He said this, when, after the meeting? JONES: Yes. I said, Well, what comes next? Well, you take care of it. And I remember that the first thing we did -- so then heres another new thing for me, and I thought, well, I better figure out somehow to keep records, and what needs to be kept and this and that. LIEBESKIND: This was all before computers. JONES: Oh yes. And we had to start developing a membership, so very quickly we contacted everybody who had attended the meeting and asked them to recommend colleagues who might be interested or good candidates for members in the association. And then to those people we wrote another letter, sort of a one-page form thing, that said this is what weve done -- its come from the meeting, and objectives and this and that. And had a very simple membership application or something. And we had that sort of an initial membership drive. LIEBESKIND: What was the initial fee? Do you remember what the membership cost? JONES: Thirty-five dollars. That of course was without the journal. There were some funds... LIEBESKIND: So you knew at that time already that there was going to be a journal, and you planned.... JONES: Yes, part of it was that there would be a journal. LIEBESKIND: It seems to me -- Im not positive on this, but you probably would know -- that it was decided there would be a journal at Issaquah and that in fact Pat would be its editor. Is that not true? JONES: Yes, but I think that when Dr. Bonica announced it, he said we plan a journal, but the discussions for that had taken place with Pat independent of anything I would have been involved in. LIEBESKIND: Maybe even before the meeting. JONES: Yes, right. LIEBESKIND: He probably didnt spring this on Pat at the meeting. JONES: Yeah. But I dont believe there was any official communication with Elsevier -- you know, there may have been the year before, but Im not sure, that Pat might have, it might have started in 72 -- Im not absolutely sure about that. LIEBESKIND: I dont think I ever asked John Bonica this when I interviewed him, but you know when youre -- he had a whole plan which he brought in its entirety to that meeting: That there will be an IASP, that the IASP will have a journal, that there will be a, probably a triennial, world meeting somewhere, that there would be a national, regional, chapters. Now he didnt just lay this on everybody for the first time at that meeting -- he must have done some spade work, not with me, but with some of the bigshots in the field... JONES: Well, Im pretty sure that he... LIEBESKIND: He must have called them and proposed this kind of thing ahead of time, so that he knew that when he made some of the proposals that he would have the backing of some of the bigshots, too, that they would immediately say Right, yes, lets do it that way. For example, with Pat he must have. JONES: Well, Im pretty sure that I recall seeing something that dates from 1972 about communicating that Pat had done some footwork with some publishers in Europe and that sort of thing. But I dont, I honestly am not aware of a big information campaign ahead of time with any large number of people. LIEBESKIND: It may have just been a few of the key ones -- he must have viewed Pat and Ron as very key, and then there were probably some others. JONES: Oh, probably somebody like Bill Noordenbos, maybe, and Ainsley, of course, because Ainsley would have had this other meeting and would have a feel for the interest and would, in a way, have the basic scientist input there and that sort of thing. But I am not aware of any large -- and I also would say that with his powers of observation, shall we say, he might have moderated whatever he said at the end of the meeting by the way the meeting was going, and of course, it went such full guns that he just put the whole banana down on the table. LIEBESKIND: I have a vague recollection of participating in a small meeting -- he asked me to sit in, to attend -- my recollection is not so very good, but there may have been twenty, thirty, forty people in a room, where he.... JONES: I was not at that meeting. LIEBESKIND: It was probably just the scientists, whatever, some of the speakers, to whom he first proposed having this IASP and I think the journal and so forth. And again, I may be making this up, but it seems to me that the purpose of that -- this was earlier in the meeting -- so then he said, If you all agree, then tomorrow in front of everyone, or the last day or whatever it is -- I will then say that we all together propose... -- he didnt want to have to stand up alone and propose this, he wanted to have some backing. Does that sound like something he would have done? It seems to me that I remember something like that. JONES: Yes. I do know that there were a number of meetings of various types that went on, but that I was not physically present in and it would make a lot of sense to me. Because you may have this idea but you do need somewhat of a consensus of peers for something like that. LIEBESKIND: Exactly, and you dont just spring this on everybody, you try and get some people to line up with you. JONES: Yeah, yeah. LIEBESKIND: So you come back from Issaquah and he drops this whole thing in your lap, and says Youre it -- Did he give you a title? He headed what was called the steering committee, or something like that -- what was to become the first council but it wasnt an organization yet. So one of your first charges was to make it an organization, get it incorporated. Did you take a lot of responsibility for that? JONES: No, actually, I didnt do that. He filed -- Vaguely I remember working on some bylaws which were filed, and we had the whole thing filed through attorneys that he knew in Washington D.C., which he had known from the Anesthesia Society, which was fine, and so... LIEBESKIND: Who did those bylaws? Did he write them? JONES: Yes, he did. What he did is he incorporated -- he used bylaws from a couple of other organizations and modified them for what would seem to be -- because he used some from the Anesthesia Society -- but also because of the global component he had to use something else which involved things like... LIEBESKIND: The World Federation of Societies of Anesthesiologists... JONES: Thats right, World Federation of Societies of Anesthesiologists -- he used them as well, and then sort of took what was appropriate. I dont know if somebody like Ray Fink also might have worked on those, but I was not involved with that aspect of it, and that was done very quickly, relatively quickly, because those papers were filed in May 1974. LIEBESKIND: Within a year. JONES: Within a year, yeah. Right. LIEBESKIND: So when were we officially incorporated, the IASP? JONES: May 9, 1974. LIEBESKIND: That was when they were accepted ... JONES: In Washington D.C. LIEBESKIND: So theyd been submitted some time before that. JONES: Well, not that much -- a couple months before. But you know, you cant just do that instantaneously, when you have a busy schedule, youve got other things that youve got going on. LIEBESKIND: When did the journal first come out? JONES: January 75. Which is really pretty quick, when you think about it. And so Pat Wall really got cracking on it for quite a while. LIEBESKIND: Yes, indeed, must have had a lot of stuff in the background. JONES: And initially in my office, the main thing that I was doing was just sort of starting to get members registered and starting to keep all those kind of records, and a little bit about some committee activity that was going on. LIEBESKIND: Did you have a title in reference to the IASP at that time or not anything like that? JONES: Initially I didnt, and then I think I got something like assistant secretary or something like that. Eventually, probably after the Florence meeting, I got the title of executive secretary. LIEBESKIND: Wait a minute, no. Werent you the first secretary and treasurer? JONES: Well, no, I mean... LIEBESKIND: You were an elected official. JONES: Yeah, sure. LIEBESKIND: You were an elected secretary and treasurer. JONES: Right, but I also... LIEBESKIND: Because I reread my speech and I believe I said in that speech that the nominating committee, in coming up with its slate, recommended that we have the same person be secretary and treasurer of the organization, and that we felt that that person should be in Seattle and that person would be Louisa Jones. JONES: But I was only the treasurer, I was never the secretary. Ray Fink was the first secretary. The executive secretary thing Im talking about is the job aspect of it, not the volunteer aspect of it. Not the elected aspect of it. You may have recommended that, but thats not what happened. I was never the secretary. LIEBESKIND: OK, Ill have to go and look at my notes. Am I confusing the APS? Were you the first -- no, Battista was the first. JONES: Im the secretary-treasurer of IPF. Thats it. But no... LIEBESKIND: Thats not right, but Ill check my notes. I dont want to go up against your memory, which Im sure is perfect. JONES: Well, its not real hard to do because I can just pull out one of the early directories of IASP and that would have -- because we published the first directory, I think, in 1975, and it has a list of everybody who was in there. Thats true, I was the treasurer, but as the treasurer, that was just keeping care of the -- overseeing the accounting part of it as the employee, which I will say at that time, for the first few years, IASP was not paying any salaries. Dr. Bonica was able to -- LIEBESKIND: He picked that up entirely, huh? JONES: Yeah, he picked that up. LIEBESKIND: When did you first become paid by the IASP? JONES: I first became paid by IASP in 1978, which was the year that Dr. Bonica stepped down as chairman. It was one of the first acts of the new chairman. LIEBESKIND: That wasnt that recently. JONES: No, it wasnt at all. And then -- well, you see, because at the same time I was doing all this IASP stuff, I still had my full load of work in the department for the entire faculty. LIEBESKIND: You must have been working very hard. JONES: I was working hard. Its when I started getting into these long hours that I still work now, and Im fighting rather hard to try and get out of that, because its all I do. It really is all I do, which is not particularly healthy in the long run. And its a habit, you know? But no, I did it, and also -- I dont want to be critical because I know where it comes from, but Dr. Bonica definitely had the attitude that if you were not married and didnt have a family, you had nothing else to do with your time, and I know that I tried to explain to him once, not successfully of course, that if you lived alone, in order to talk face to face to another human being, you had to leave your home, and in point of fact, maybe you needed more time than people who were married and had families. Because at least in your household, you turn around and theres a human being there -- you know, something like that. LIEBESKIND: Yeah, thats a good point. JONES: Its a slight extreme, but he definitely had that attitude and the only thing that was an acceptable excuse for maybe not working on a weekend or that sort of stuff was you were having houseguests or you were going out of town. And of course thats what he did. Those were the things where he wasnt working all the time. LIEBESKIND: Well he probably expected that sort of devotion and work from everybody. Didnt he drive a lot of people crazy with that? JONES: Well, to some extent, but if you had a family... LIEBESKIND: Loeser -- he leaned on Loeser a lot? JONES: Yeah, but if you had a family it was somewhat different. It was different. And then, of course, their family was different from everybody elses. And unfortunately, I seem to have an element in my personality which probably is because of the way I was shifted around when I was a young teenager, of where you dont do anything to rock the boat, because whats going to happen to you if you rock the boat? And he probably sensed that. I mean, he knew I was a pushover for that sort of thing. And I never rocked the boat. LIEBESKIND: Well, not getting too personal, but it seems to me that youre a strange mixture of someone with a lot of personal strength and strength of character and so forth -- I mean, all the time Ive known you, Ive seen you this way -- and yet at the same time there is this other element of not wanting to rock the boat, of, I wouldnt exactly call it passivity, but a willingness to go along, or accept. I mean, you even say this in just the way you talk -- its kind of a oh well, whatever or thats all right, I didnt let it bother me. Somebody was, you were mentioning with relation to your brother, you said something: Oh well, that doesnt, thats just the way he is. I mean, its kind of an acceptance of things on your part that many other people wouldnt accept, and theyd say, Well screw that, you cant come to my house anymore; or Im not going to do this, and you dont do that. In those circumstances you, despite your personal strength -- Again, I dont mean to be too analytic, but it probably does have something to do with the way you were brought up, as you were just saying. JONES: Well, I think the specific thing Im thinking about is that when I was 13 years old I was sent from Brooklyn, New York, to Seattle, Washington to live with my aunt. LIEBESKIND: Why was that? Because your father died or something? He was still alive? JONES: No, there were six kids in my family, money was sparse, I was unable to go to one of the parochial high schools and there was a certain amount of anxiety about my going to the local public high school, and then there was, according to one of my sisters, this idea of being a companion to my aunt. LIEBESKIND: She was alone? JONES: Well, she was a single lady -- mind you, its my aunt that neither my mother nor father got along with, and that none of us knew -- but aside from that, you know. LIEBESKIND: Your mothers sister? JONES: My fathers sister. So it was one of these things were I was away in the country visiting somebody on a farm in upstate New York, which is where I was born, and I found out when I came home that I was leaving in two weeks for Seattle, which was about a week before school started. LIEBESKIND: None of your other brothers or sisters had been banished like this? JONES: No, and as a matter of fact they had all been involved in the family discussions about it, but I never had been. LIEBESKIND: Good grief! JONES: I didnt ever have an option. I mean, a week later I was on a plane going to Seattle. LIEBESKIND: Were you the youngest? JONES: Thirteen years old, second oldest. And then I went from a family of eight people to one-on-one, into a dinky little house, five hundred square foot little house -- I was home alone a lot because my aunt worked -- she was an architect, worked for the Corps of Engineers... LIEBESKIND: She was a very bright woman, huh? JONES: Yes, very bright... LIEBESKIND: Shes the one you were mentioning yesterday, who did a lot of reading, was a big reader. JONES: Right, exactly. LIEBESKIND: She wasnt easy to be with, I gather. JONES: Well, no, probably not real easy -- it was like you always had this feeling you werent good enough or smart enough or something. They were at a period when they were putting overtime in -- and then when I had been there a year, she had to -- her office had a temporary move up to Anchorage, Alaska, and boom, I was in boarding school for two years. LIEBESKIND: Here? JONES: Here. Actually, I can see my high school from my office window. Its kind of a crock -- it still functions, but no longer as a boarding school. LIEBESKIND: But you must have been devastated by that. You were thirteen years old, when you first came out. JONES: Certainly at that age, everything was a big adventure, but you dont -- I mean, the other intriguing things are, when I think about it -- there were other elements of it that were like, you were only allowed to call home twice a year, your birthday and Christmas, and you could only talk for three minutes, that was it. LIEBESKIND: These were your aunts rules? JONES: Well, it was just the telephone cost a lot in those days. Those were the days when it cost three bucks a minute to talk on the phone. I didnt see my family for two years and I only could see my family when I had earned enough money to pay for my ticket, and so Id work all summer, earning 15- or 16-year-old wages, or save all my babysitting money or whatever it was, so I could buy my ticket to go back home to stay with my family. When I got back there, if I was lucky I had a bed on the fold-out couch -- I didnt even have a bed, there was no room for me, some of the time -- and so gradually you get this idea that maybe youre not exactly, maybe youre a bit of a hot potato with all these people. LIEBESKIND: Were you argumentative with your family or something? Did you feel that they were actually really banishing you because you were a troublesome teenager or something? JONES: No, I think that -- there was no such thing in those days as troublesome teenagers and certainly it wasnt in our family. I think it was partially economic. LIEBESKIND: But why you of all the children? JONES: Well, I was the one -- I mean, partially it had to do with the state -- well, for one thing they thought I was so much smarter than my older sister and I was that age of transition in school, and I suspect -- I dont think I was particularly popular. Certainly when you have one child and ten and a half months later another one arrives, you probably arent real popular from a very early age. LIEBESKIND: You were ten and a half months younger than your older sister? JONES: Thats right, than the first one, yeah. LIEBESKIND: So thats in close succession. JONES: Yeah, so you may be -- but I mean, those things happen. They happened more then than they do now, and thats no big deal. LIEBESKIND: There you go again, accepting. JONES: [Laughs] No big deal -- I mean, you accept those things, you know. I think there was a fairly strong economic component because an interesting thing that happened in my family is that my father had been called into active duty during the Korean War and he was in the engineer construction stuff, and he was thirty-eight years old. When he got back into the job market -- there was all these men and they want some young guy that they can pay half the price of somebody his age, because they had a lot of these guys -- he was like in the fledgling electronics field and a lot of these guys had learned this in Korea -- you know, how to work all this stuff. He had a terrible time. It kind of broke him, I think, but he had a very difficult time getting a job, and so there was that kind of stuff going on, and I think that was part of it. And again, thats not a singular experience -- this happens, its not uncommon after a wartime economy and all that sort of stuff. LIEBESKIND: Were you religious at that time? You were born and raised Catholic. JONES: Right. LIEBESKIND: Were you very involved in the church at all? JONES: Well, we went to the Catholic grade school and we sang in the choir and we sang Latin mass every morning, which I loved. I couldnt really sing, but we came every day, so they didnt really care if you could sing, the organ drowned you out anyway -- its true, its really true -- a big pipe organ. But not anymore [involved] than kids are, particularly at that age. My mothers not Catholic. My father is the Catholic side, and it was a loving community in this sort of parish -- it was you know, a warm sort of thing. But not, you know, I mean, it was that Catholic kids went to Catholic schools in those days. You went to Catholic high school -- I have good experiences from school always. I wasnt ever the greatest student or anything like that, but school was always a positive experience for me. But I will say that I realize now that I certainly had more of an adjustment when I came out here and found myself in a completely different environment. My first year of high school, Im sure I was just not really knowing what was going on. LIEBESKIND: You came here at the age of thirteen? JONES: Thirteen, right. LIEBESKIND: And you stayed for how long? JONES: Well, except for two years of college in New York and another two years of working, two and a half years of working in New York and being in Europe, Ive been here ever since. LIEBESKIND: You started college here, and then you did the last two years in New York? JONES: Right. LIEBESKIND: And then you worked there for a few years, and then you came back to work and got this job with Bonica. JONES: Thats right. One of the reasons I transferred back to Fordham was, number one I wasnt being challenged enough out here. LIEBESKIND: Where were you, at one of the local...? JONES: Seattle University, a Jesuit university here. But I realized when I got home, that my sisters and brothers were complete strangers. Because what had happened was they had all become teenagers and were becoming young adults and I didnt know them. I had left the children and now they were these young adults, and its an important time, and it probably was almost too late at that time, because they didnt know me either. And so you sort of miss out on that a little bit. Or it makes it harder. Because I mean, I just hear them nowadays, I remember this and I remember that, when I was in high school and blah blah -- well, I wasnt there. LIEBESKIND: You werent part of that. JONES: Right. So anyway, I guess my psyche is kind of sensitive. I think probably thats why I dont stand up for myself. I stay away from argumentative situations -- I really stay away from argumentative situations -- and thats probably why. But from one point of view, its helped IASP a lot. LIEBESKIND: [Laughs] Its served you well. Dealing with all those egos -- and I dont mean I - G - G - O. JONES: You mean Ainsley, who Dr. Bonica is always telling him it must be an Italian name -- Iggo -- and he says the same to someone named Sola, Andy Sola, whos from Norway and whose ancestors were famous Vikings -- must be Italian. I said, Andy, why dont you just tell Dr. Bonica that maybe Bonica is really a Norwegian name [both laugh]. After all, those Norwegians were down there, you know. Twist the tables around. LIEBESKIND: He told me something like that. I think he did tell me that his family was -- some Normans or some darn thing. JONES: Yeah, Normans. LIEBESKIND: You were saying how this has served you well. JONES: I mean, its been the time demands and stuff. And then the other thing is, this I believe was one of the things that made -- I mean, it probably was an asset to IASP, and there are other people like me around, so Im not pushing myself -- always -- I remember, when I first became aware of popular music -- you know, the hit parade and all this kind of stuff -- one of the songs that intrigued me the most was the one about far away places with strange-sounding names, far away over the sea, castles in Spain and all this sort of stuff, and that always was there. I was always intrigued and I loved meeting -- I mean, I probably was nine years old, and a lot of these songs that involved traveling and going other places and meeting other people. LIEBESKIND: Youre saying this was very attractive to you about being part of IASP. JONES: No, that wasnt it at all, because who would have had -- I wouldnt have had that concept. But what I was saying is, I brought with me into the association an interest in people and places everywhere and from a melting pot area like East New York, Brooklyn, I had spent a lifetime listening to people with strong accents and learning how to speak slowly in English so they could understand you, and all these things which really are -- they are little things, but they make a big difference in situations you cant even imagine within IASP -- they certainly have for me over the years. So that has always been interesting for me. I mean, I know people who never want to travel outside the United States. They could be perfectly good in administration, association management, but it would not be -- now I may be not as strong in those things, but its an unusual balance. And its helped me -- its made it, makes it more interesting for me. And I hope it makes it easier for some of the members too, by trying to deal with some of those things. LIEBESKIND: Getting back now to the formation of the IASP, one of the things that I recall so distinctly, because as I told you, Bonica put me on this nominating committee, and I remember when he told me, it was in the letter that he wrote me, because I read it again recently -- but I think I remember it from a conversation too, it was on the phone -- was that he said I dont want to be the first president. I said, John, what are you talking about, of course youll be the first president. No, no, no, dont put me up for the first president. It should be a European. We dont want them to think over there that were dominating this in the United States. Its very important. Well, all right, but everyone would want you as president. No, no, I dont want to be the first president. Not only that, I think it should be a woman. Now that, for 1974 or 1975 I guess, that seems to me pretty advanced thinking, that it should be a woman. So he said, Of course we were therefore thinking of talking to a few people and somebody mentioned Madame Fessard. You worked with her, John, what do you think of that? So I went back to this issue of, Gee, John, everyone would naturally think you would be the first president. But if you really insist that it be someone else, I think that would be a good choice. Shes certainly very well-regarded. I dont know how well-organized she is. But he said, Well, we dont have to worry about that because, you see, well have everything organized out of Seattle. Louisa will, and so forth -- and I would be the first president-elect. That way I could watch over things for not only the three years that Im the president-elect, but then three more years as president and three more as past president. So all of a sudden I kind of realized what he was doing. JONES: Yeah, it was so he would have nine years of influence over the initial years. LIEBESKIND: What recollections do you have of that? Do you? JONES: Oh, I definitely have recollections about Im not going to be the first president because I want to have the nine years of influence over the formative years. LIEBESKIND: He discussed that with you and so forth? JONES: I didnt ever hear much about, it should be a European and it should be a woman, you know. But I definitely remember the nine years of influence. And I would like to make the point, because I think this is very important, that whereas I was doing the administrative paperwork, I believe that one of the strongest things holding IASP together during the, really the first ten years, shall we say, is the journal. And its a tremendous debt we owe to Pat Wall for that. LIEBESKIND: Absolutely. Very big debt. JONES: And I dont think its as fully understood, or fully realized. Because from the point of view... LIEBESKIND: It was the flagship of what we did. JONES: Yes. But it was the one thing that members were getting. I mean they were getting a dues notice every year, and they were getting a little directory. They werent even initially getting anything that resembled a newsletter, but they were getting that journal. LIEBESKIND: Now wait a minute, there was a newsletter. JONES: Yes, but not -- yeah, I have all the newsletters. But it wasnt -- it didnt start out quite as early as the other stuff. LIEBESKIND: It started out before Florence. JONES: Uh-uh. LIEBESKIND: Yes. END OF TAPE LOUISA E. JONES INTERVIEW TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE JOHN LIEBESKIND: Im recalling, because I looked it up recently, that -- I dont think I have volume 1, number 1 -- I have volume 1, number 2, of the newsletter, and Im certain its dated before -- its like dated the spring of 75, before the autumn, when the meeting was held. And the reason that I noticed it is because it announces in there the formation of the Western Pain Society and theres a first meeting going to be held in, I think it was June of 75, and John Liebeskind is organizer and if anyone is interested in attending, they can write to him, or something -- that he would make an announcement about that. I was thinking to do a little something on the formation of the Western Pain Society historically. LOUISA JONES: Well, I obviously dont remember exactly when the first issue came out. But if the newsletter was coming out in 75, thats good, then the members got that too. LIEBESKIND: But your point is still extremely valid -- it was the journal Pain that was our flagship, something to really be proud of. JONES: Well, it was something substantial from a fledgling -- and of course we were organizing meetings during that period too, but those are somewhat different because its not part of the dues structure and it extends beyond the membership and all of that sort of thing. But I think its very important. LIEBESKIND: And it was excellent. Pat held it to the very highest standards right from the beginning, where someone else might not have. I agree it was an enormous step. JONES: And it grew quickly too. But I have brought that to the attention of others in recent years, because I dont feel it -- I think its more important than people even -- I mean, you dont think about it, and the reason you dont think about it is because the journal has always been coming regularly and its always been nice. Its been so automatic that it appears effortless. LIEBESKIND: You had something to do, I understand -- you were mentioning the other day -- recently with getting this Pat Wall Young Investigator Award named after him, is that right? JONES: Changing the name of the IASP Young Investigator Award to the Patrick D. Wall Young Investigator Award. LIEBESKIND: Thats kind of in recognition of all this. JONES: Yes, I think. And because he has had so many postdocs and everybody run through his lab. I mean, year after year, everybody -- its just like your lab, and the other major pain research labs in the world, Zimmermann and Besson and Dubner, Jerry Gebhart and some of the labs in Scandinavia, and that sort of thing. Anyway, I have always had what I consider a very nice working relationship with Pat. I seem to have, dont ask me where it comes from because Im no different than lots of people, but I seem to have a fairly decent ability to work with most of the people that I have had to work with more directly in IASP. There have been one or two that have been stressful, but by and large Ive been able to adjust to them all, and of course from my point of view it makes my job a lot easier. LIEBESKIND: And more fun. Youre not always grinding away. JONES: And more fun, thats right. Or if you just think, why doesnt this person leave me alone or whatever the heck it is. Or why should I do this, whatever, I just never have those thoughts. I suppose youre not supposed to have those thoughts in a business situation, but of course you do. And the nice thing about business or work is that you have an excuse for why you can communicate effectively with somebody that you maybe dont like so much or whatever the heck it is. Because its work. LIEBESKIND: Pat especially is known not to be an easy person. He has a temper and has very high standards and so forth. The fact that you got along with him so well is a testimony to yourself too, because he obviously would have had to have had a lot of respect for you, or he couldnt have dealt nicely with you for all these years. JONES: Yes, I suppose. But I think part of what Im saying and didnt add on to that is that there also is the element that I am not communicating with people in general. I am only communicating on an administrative level rather than on a pure scientific level, that level which is where theres more... LIEBESKIND: But that wouldnt protect you from the wrath of someone like Pat if you were not good at what you do. JONES: Its like a lot of people. It is like what I was explaining about Dr. Bonica before. They feel that you are doing your job well. I mean, this is John Loeser. All John Loeser asks of anybody, no matter who they are, is that they do their job well, and he has tremendous respect for anybody, for the guy sweeping the floor --if he sweeps it clean, John appreciates it. Because it just makes everything easy to work with. You know the person is giving you informed information or whatever the heck it is. I mean, its kind of an idyllic way to work, in a sense. So thats I guess what I subconsciously try to do with -- I think subconsciously you figure out pretty quickly that this is the way to work, is to just do it right, and I always try to maintain a -- Ive learned a lot more about communicating with people, especially in writing, to be neutral and how easy it is to be submissive without losing anything. Submissive in correspondence and stuff. I dont mean -- submissive is not the right word -- non-antagonistic. LIEBESKIND: Non-challenging. JONES: Non-challenging, right. LIEBESKIND: Well, in order to be that -- non-challenging -- you might have to give up what you think is right, and I think you dont do that. I think you do get across what you think is right, but you do it in a non-challenging way. You respect the other persons sensitivities and ego and dont threaten them. JONES: Put it down in a very neutral fashion. Thats one of the other things I learned from Dr. Bonica, which maybe is basic to the way lots of people do things in the business sector, but it took me a while to figure it out. And that is, whenever something comes up that you have this sort of gut reaction to, or its really important, a gut reaction that maybe is really positive or really negative or you want to go blankety-blank, whats this? He told me years ago, he said I let it sit for three days. Because youve read it, its gone and youve had this emotional reaction of some kind, negative, positive, whatever it is. You cannot act on that because you are going to put down stuff that youll regret forever, and you maybe dont have it all worked out. So I just now, I let that go into my subconscious and two or three days later Ive got the perfect thing, and that has helped me a lot. But he told me that -- I mean, it isnt something I figured out he was doing. He told me that. LIEBESKIND: Literally instructed you. JONES: It was like an instruction. And it may be basic to a lot of people, but it wasnt to me. It was very helpful to me. I think that helps with the wide variety of people that I have to communicate with. LIEBESKIND: From the standpoint of our history here, the first president, Madame Fessard, how much dealing did you have with her during those first three years, or was she really pretty much just a symbolic... JONES: Yes, it was. The first two or three presidencies were largely symbolic. I would take that through Albe-Fessard, Bonica and Iggo. LIEBESKIND: Ainsley was the third president. JONES: Right. Because there was not a lot of other activity. I mean, we still really were concentrating on growth and getting the meetings -- the meetings were the main activity -- the journal, of course -- but there wasnt a lot of other projects that committees were involved in -- the whole chapter structure was sort of getting started during those periods. And so there was not really a lot of communication going back and forth. It was mostly almost just plain housekeeping stuff. LIEBESKIND: Who was the president after Ainsley? Ron? JONES: Ron Melzack. LIEBESKIND: So we havent had so many presidents. JONES: No, when youre doing it every three years -- I mean, lets see, weve had Albe-Fessard, Bonica, Iggo, Melzack, Cousins and Ulf Lindblom -- thats six in eighteen years -- thats right, because the first one... LIEBESKIND: Were just about to have another one. JONES: Right. LIEBESKIND: Madame Fessard was only the president for two years because... JONES: No, she became president in 75. LIEBESKIND: No, no, thats right. JONES: It was the Organizing Committee, and then the first election. And in a way thats kind of nice -- I think it would be very hard for an organization of IASPs scope in the sense of geography to do things as quickly as some organization that is just within one country, because everything takes two or three times as long because of global communications and that sort of thing. It also gives the presidents time to get programs going and modified and all that sort of thing as they go along. LIEBESKIND: Let me look at my list of questions here. JONES: Yeah, you have to keep me on track. LIEBESKIND: No, theres no great special track. Weve covered the first three. I know Bonicas very strong-minded, but so are you -- where there times when you and he disagreed on how best to proceed? Were you able ever to convince him or change his mind on any issues? Do you remember any specific issues where you and he in planning Issaquah or planning the early stages of IASP or even later? JONES: I dont remember any specific things, but I know that we disagreed about things regularly. He could always tell on my face when I disagreed with him. And he would say, I can tell you dont agree with me -- what do you think? And so I would tell him what I thought. And he would say, Well, I understand what youre saying but I dont agree with you. And that was it. After the first few -- that was sort of early on in my communications with him. Once I realized that this -- I got better at becoming, at saying, Is this the way we really want to do this? or I think maybe we should do this this way. --in other words, there wasnt ever any problem -- again, its a similar thing about asking questions -- it means youre thinking about it. LIEBESKIND: It sounds like you found ways, without challenging him, you found ways of getting your point across in a way that he could accept it; Im sure he did, plenty of times, accept your advice. JONES: One of the things thats interesting to me now that IASP has more staff is that I sometimes get threatened when I get approached by another staff member in the same way that I maybe used to approach him. And I think, Ive been here before -- you better think about what youre doing, because... LIEBESKIND: Youre talking about when your own people come in, people who work for you in your office... JONES: Thats right. Although I cant believe that I ever would have been threatening to him, because it was a different type of relationship -- it wasnt strictly administrative. You might have that more on a pure level within medicine. Fortunately most of the time I realized, youve got to be objective about this, because you cant just cut off peoples ideas. Bad move, bad move. LIEBESKIND: Youre learning managerial style. JONES: Well, you know, its hard when you have a small office and you have to do every aspect of stuff for so many years, its very hard to break some of it off. LIEBESKIND: I gather its only been relatively recently that you added this amount of staff. A few years ago there was just you and maybe one other part-time person. JONES: Thats right. LIEBESKIND: And now there are four others, is that right? JONES: Yeah, well, the membership has grown so much, we have a full-time person for the membership and a full-time secretary. And we have a full-time executive assistant. Its been a lot of changes in the past few years. LIEBESKIND: Well, IASP has gotten so much more active, you know, doing so much. JONES: Exactly. LIEBESKIND: Same with APS, scaled down, for its smaller size -- just as you were saying before, for the first number of years its just keeping the organization going, the membership trying to grow, making sure you know what to do about the meetings, and in the last few years with APS, there are so many more functions, committees that are doing things, not just committees, but that are coming up with products, and you look at the IASP with this thing that Bill Fordyce has been involved in with pain in the workplace. JONES: Forty-four chapters. LIEBESKIND: Forty-four national chapters, wow. Thats incredible. JONES: Yeah, thats a lot. LIEBESKIND: That is a lot. As you look back now, twenty years later, upon your years with the IASP, there must have been -- What are some of the things you look back on with most pleasure? What were some of the high points for you of that experience? What would you point to? JONES: Well, the Congresses are high points. I can remember the meeting -- I suspect the first one that really hit me was the one in Montreal in 1978, where I was really fully involved in all the organizational aspects and all of that. I had after that meeting what had to be like postpartum depression. I mean, as somebody said, well, the babys been born and its left home already too. LIEBESKIND: Because the Florence meeting you hadnt organized, but this one you really did. JONES: And again that was the first World Congress for me and it was a lot of on-the-job -- and I wasnt involved in establishing the budget for Florence and I wasnt involved in preparing the abstracts and doing all the printing stuff and all of that, as I was from then on. But the Congresses are always a highlight for me because I really enjoy interacting with the membership, you know, and I try never to not be friendly to any of the members. I dont, because I just dont think thats fair. One of the things Im always saying to the staff is, its important to remember that our main function is to service the needs of our members -- thats why were here. Were not here to run a business -- thats part of it, but its, this is what -- and so Ive always tried to maintain that attitude. And then its been personally rewarding to me to become friendly with some of the members who have served on the Board of Directors of the Council. You get to be better friends with some of them, and some I think Ive become lifelong friends with -- and I think of people like you, I think of people like Ron Melzack and Lucy and Mary Ellen Jeans, Michael Bond, Pat Wall even. I mean, somebody said to me once, because I remember often Pat Wall and I will just go off and talk about stuff and people would say to me, What do you and Pat talk about? LIEBESKIND: And you say, None of your business. [they laugh] JONES: No, Ive had people say that to me. And Ive said, well, you know, one of the things that I provide to people is a relief from talking about science. I may not be the most broadly educated person in the world, but I think about a lot of things... LIEBESKIND: Well, apart from that, you can still be talking shop with these people because its not science, it has to do with the IASP, the organization, the journal, or the meeting, without talking about science. JONES: Thats right. But this is what Im saying is, a lot of the time, at least when Im off talking with Pat, its about other philosophical things or something. And Pat isnt the only one, I do this with other people. And of course, I was going to say Ulf and Berit and Miriam Martelete, Harold Breivik and lots of people. And those are very nice -- I mean, you just sort of wish you were all around one another more often. But thats the way it is. LIEBESKIND: Whos been the best president of IASP? JONES: Whos been the best president? Well, as I say, I think the first three were pretty much -- it was almost like honorary. I think Dr. Bonica has a role outside of being president in IASP, so I have to exclude him from the count. There were not a lot of specific activities going on during his presidency, although he did have some of the ideas for the taxonomy and the data records and data retrieval, that sort of stuff, that have eventually come to fruition. I would say, well, I think Ulf has been the best. LIEBESKIND: Really? Interesting. JONES: On the other hand, part of it has been because there has just been so much more activity. LIEBESKIND: Would you say he stimulated a lot of that? Was a lot of that because of his inspiration? JONES: Part of it is whats been there for the president to have to react to. LIEBESKIND: The president stands on the shoulders of the man before him in a sense. JONES: Thats right. On the shoulders of the one before, and then its a little bit hard -- really I can only compare the recent ones, and thats because the activities have increased so much in the recent years, and so part of it is the reaction to it, and there have been some important publications like the Core Curriculum, which was very important, which happened during the reign of Michael Cousins, but this was the suggestion of someone else -- these publications. LIEBESKIND: These things come to fruition in someones term, and they were initiated by someone else. JONES: In a way, its very hard to say any one of them. I mean, each one had its own circumstances, and I think Ron was in the real transitional period. He was really in a real transitional period halfway between the honorary and the real working. LIEBESKIND: He told me once that the thing that he was proudest of, or something like that, was having to deal with the political problems that came up in relation to having a Congress in Japan, and he saw that that got -- and then it got switched at the last minute to Seattle. What were the circumstances of that? JONES: It got switched to Hamburg. It was the 87 Congress. It happened in Seattle. LIEBESKIND: What was that all about? What happened? That had to do with Yokota? JONES: We were planning the 1987 Congress for Japan with Hamburg as the follow-up site. The Congress -- I remember it so distinctly, because the Congress in Seattle was over and had been successful -- this was 1984, and I had gone home at midnight the night before. Six oclock the next morning the phone rang -- no, the phone rang at midnight -- You better be down here for breakfast real early tomorrow, Louisa -- we have a crisis. LIEBESKIND: Who was this? JONES: This was Ron Melzack. He was still in town. And I said okay. I thought I was going to have a sleep-in. After the meeting several of the Japanese, whose names I dont even remember, who just came forward saying, if a meeting is held in Japan with the way things are set up now, nobody in Japan will attend the meeting. What they were saying is, they were not going to support the person who would have been the main chairman of the LAC. LIEBESKIND: That was Yokota. JONES: Yes -- who was a member of Council... LIEBESKIND: ...trying to pull this off and the other guys, the Tokyo group was not going to let him do that or something. JONES: I guess -- that dichotomy, the north-south dichotomy, yeah. I dont even remember who the others were, and somewhat uncharacteristically I believe they even put this in writing. LIEBESKIND: We had had that council meeting... JONES: Thats right, in Kyoto in 1982. LIEBESKIND: That was before that, right? JONES: Right. LIEBESKIND: And that was where Yokota kind of -- he organized that -- it was very lavish and so forth, and then he wanted to go from there. JONES: Yes, and there was a consensus among the Japanese who were at that meeting, because, you know, they were meeting behind closed doors and all of that. Anyway, so thats what happened. So we had to switch it over. LIEBESKIND: Some of these people had told this to Ron Melzack, that they would not attend the meeting. JONES: Yes, that the Japanese would not attend the meeting -- there would be no support. They really said, if its kind of like managed the way things are now. LIEBESKIND: Had it been scheduled for Tokyo? JONES: No it had not -- the city venue had not been -- I mean, the message was that the dichotomy that had existed still had not healed enough within the pain field and part of it was also between -- it was more than just north- =south, it was also basic scientists and clinicians. LIEBESKIND: Did Melzack make a... JONES: He made the decision. He said -- it was interesting, because I remember him saying he heard this in the evening after everything was done, everybody was gone, and you sort of have this down anyway, and he said, I went to bed, it was hard to get to sleep, and he said, In the middle of the night I woke up with these terrible leg cramps, and he said, Whenever I get these leg cramps, I know something major is going on up here and that theres some sort of a problem. And he said, this is what the problem is and Im going to have to make a decision. LIEBESKIND: He had just become the president. So that was a very big decision, a courageous decision. JONES: Oh yeah. But Ron is a very courageous person. Ron has made some very major decisions about stuff -- I mean, he puts his whole professional career on the line periodically, I think -- with some of his theories. LIEBESKIND: Oh sure, absolutely. JONES: And they get accepted -- I mean, I dont know how you do that. Time after time. Some are major and some are smaller, but I was always impressed with that and I realized -- every so often I think about it -- how tough -- because how do you really know whats going on, you see, in a situation like that? And its taken all this time to heal the wound -- except were not the one who did the wounding. With the Japanese. LIEBESKIND: Now theyre together and theyre ready to have the conversation... JONES: Yes. They appear to be. The thing is, it was like a real Catch-22 situation. LIEBESKIND: Because you didnt want to antagonize them. JONES: Theyre the ones who wanted to skunk somebody, but they were able to twist it around so it looked as though we were unsensitive to the needs of the Japanese. Its a win-lose situation, you know. But thats the way it is. And there are certainly a number of --there was also the element, there was also, in the course of some of this -- the phrasing from the Japanese that this maybe was too early for this to happen in our country. LIEBESKIND: They werent together enough yet as a national chapter. They were still factionalized. JONES: Thats right. And we would have to believe that probably it didnt have as much to do with any particular individual as it did with the whole scene. LIEBESKIND: They were probably trying to be discreet. JONES: Right. The reason I would say that Ron brings that up is because it was extremely tough for him to do -- because that sort of administrative political thing is somewhat outside of what he would normally have to do -- hes not a departmental chairman, where you do get involved in that kind of stuff a little more -- and its one of these things, you almost have to go on a gut feeling about. LIEBESKIND: Ron was able to get the Germans to accelerate their plans so that they would hold it in 84. JONES: Yes. The Germans just in true efficiency picked it up and that worked out fine, except for the weather. LIEBESKIND: What events, as you look back over your years with IASP, do you think back on with most pride or satisfaction, what contributions you were instrumental in, behind the scenes or in front of the scenes? What things would you pick out there? JONES: Well, the Congresses. Because basically I do them. And having them be successful scientifically and break even. LIEBESKIND: Congresses are kind of like family reunions, arent they. We all get together again, and in between, were just sort of preparing the menu, and so forth. JONES: They are in a way. And Im proud of the fact that I have what I consider a pretty decent working relationship, and have maintained that, with individual members and certainly with Board members, which you would expect, but I feel very -- I want to interact with all the members and I take some pride in that, because I know that in a lot of organizations that doesnt exist. It doesnt exist in the American Pain Society, for example, which is the one that I can see most clearly, and the other thing Im proud of is several of the things that I have suggested which have been successful and well-received. One of them is that we publish the newsletter as an independent thing and not have it stuck in the back of the pain journal. Which it was for quite a few years, actually, and part of that is it was done for free. But it limited what we could do with it. So that was accepted and all of a sudden members thought they were getting so much more. They were getting the same type of information, but because it was coming in the mail to them six times a year, they all of a sudden were more keyed in to the day-to-day or month-to-month or year-to-year activities of the Association. And it also gave us something that was a little more presentable, because we were very limited with the other thing -- and it was pre-computer days too, at that time -- which we could disseminate further as well. Wed have something. And then the Technical Corner that appears in the newsletter -- that was my suggestion. I just felt that the newsletter had useful administrative information, but that we needed more, it needed to have more than that. LIEBESKIND: Well, youre the official editor of the newsletter. You always have been, from the beginning. JONES: Right. LIEBESKIND: So youve controlled, really, its content -- controlled maybe isnt the right word, but you have been editorially in charge of its content. JONES: Right. But I have never made the editorial decisions about scientific or technical material. LIEBESKIND: But in terms of how its organized, what kinds of things should go in there, youre responsible for that. JONES: Yeah. And basically I get pretty good feedback on that, that its useful information to have. But its a silly little thing, you know, to have some pride in that. LIEBESKIND: Not hardly silly at all. JONES: Well, I think part of what you have to do for the membership is have some kind of regular communication thing. I am proud of some of the publications that have appeared, because even our directory -- it looks a lot better than all the other directories I see. LIEBESKIND: Ive never seen a better one. I can say that very honestly. JONES: And part of that is just because of what I can pull in. LIEBESKIND: Its our public face. Its what we put out, it shows who we are. Its very important that that be done right. JONES: Yes. LIEBESKIND: The APS, when I became president of the APS, I said, we need a new directory -- we havent had one for a few years, I want one just like the IASP directory. I want pictures in there, and little bios... JONES: We dont do pictures. LIEBESKIND: Well, I didnt get everything I wanted, but it was modeled after yours. JONES: Yeah, most of the chapter ones do model it after ours because theres just the basic information there. But the other thing that the directory is useful for is giving somebody from the outside an idea of what the association is. I mean, this could be a science writer, this could be a government agency... LIEBESKIND: Talks about the committees and what they do. I dont know if it still has the bylaws. JONES: Yes, it has the bylaws. This is the sort of things weve used it for. LIEBESKIND: Is there a historical thing? I know we have that in the APS -- we finally got Bert Wolff to help write something. JONES: No, we dont have a historical thing in it. But by next year we will include what we call the annual report, which has figures, numbers and this and that and a breakdown of this and that in there, so it becomes even a more complete document for other sources. The publications are especially dear to me because it was one of the things that I had worked a lot on when I came in, and I know it has helped the Association that I had some knowledge about publications to the extent I did, and copy editing and all the rest of it. It saved the Association a lot of money in the early years because we didnt have to hire someone else to do that. And its maybe just made a few things look a little bit nicer. Im not saying they cant be improved upon, but I have a certain amount of pride. Its the feedback that we get from people. LIEBESKIND: And now youre really turning a big corner with IASP doing its own book publishing, starting that. JONES: Yeah, its a bit of a dilemma for me because I really like to keep my fingers in that, and its almost instinctive for me, and yet I cant do both. So I have to turn some of it over. Thats a little bit difficult. But thats just the way it goes. LIEBESKIND: You are turning it over to someone within your office? JONES: No, we dont have anybody yet who is capable of what you might say, managing editor of a scientific publication, so well have to be getting somebody external, somebody else for that. LIEBESKIND: You will hire someone from Seattle? JONES: Yeah. Where else would we hire them? LIEBESKIND: No, Howard doesnt want to do that... JONES: No, hes not doing that. He will be more involved in acquisitions and that sort of stuff. I mean, I just take pride in seeing that the Association has prospered. And thats the other unsung contributor to the success of the Association are the members. They should never be overlooked, and you dont have to have zillion of members. What you want, what you have to have, is members who care and who feel that this is providing something useful. LIEBESKIND: Youve talked about some of the happiest things, some of the things youve taken pride in -- there must have been difficult times too -- times that were painful or distressing. Are there any of those that come to mind? JONES: Well, there havent been too many. In the past couple of years the work has gotten so big, so huge, that I have had to work regularly sixty-hour weeks. Its not unusual for me to be eight a.m. to nine p.m. day after day after day after day after day, month after month, and thats -- you have to guard against getting bitter. I felt it creeping in a couple of times and saying this is ridiculous. LIEBESKIND: Well, especially the time when you werent even close to being properly paid. JONES: Well, yeah, thats true. LIEBESKIND: That was ridiculous. JONES: Yes, up until -- the only really beginning of an equitable salary for the responsibilities was in 1989. Now partially its my own fault because I didnt push enough about it, but not completely, I would say, and the powers that be maybe should be a little more aware of it. But thats okay -- now Ive done it again. Water over the bridge. Ive had one or two unpleasant encounters here and there with a member and at one point with one Council member, but fortunately Im not the only person who ever had an unpleasant encounter with this Council member, so it was really kind of laughable, put it that way. LIEBESKIND: You feel comfortable talking about it at all? JONES: Sure. LIEBESKIND: Its not Fred Zimmermann? JONES: Yes. Zimmermann, yes LIEBESKIND: ...Speaking of egos. JONES: Who stood up at a Council meeting somewhere and clicked his heels and said that -- this was in 1986, before the 1987 Congress, which was the one in Hamburg -- and who said that Louisa was interfering with the successful organization of the Congress. LIEBESKIND: Oh my. JONES: So immediately -- I mean, he had to stand up to do this, he couldnt do it sitting down -- immediately smoke started coming out of Dr. Bonicas ears and everybody else went Glong! slack! -- like that -- and Ainsley was president at that time and he said, Well, why dont we just have a little meeting right at the start of the lunch break and well find out exactly what the problem is. So we did that, and the problem was that I had written him a letter telling him he couldnt do something and then I had copied it to other members of the local arrangements committee, and the reason I had copied it to them is because I had written him the same thing before and nothing happened, and I felt that someone else needed to know. I was perfectly right in telling him what he couldnt do, but I was not the proper level to write a letter like that to someone of his stature. The letter should have come -- No, Im sorry, Ron Melzack was president at this time. So everyone said, Well, okay, who should sign the letter? Manfred said, Well, the president should sign it. Ron said, In the future I will cosign the letters with Louisa. And he said, No, no, it should be only signed by you. He said, All right, and when it was over he said, Okay, Louisa, you sign my name to the letters. Ron Melzack did -- not in front of Manfred. LIEBESKIND: Well, Manfred, people used to joke about him. I remember at the Issaquah meeting, he would stand up to ask a question and he would have to announce his name and where he came from; hed say Zimmermann - Heidelberg and click his heels -- we used to make jokes about it. I think he has softened somewhat over the years. JONES: He has, and as a matter of fact that reminds me of another thing -- one of the things that I did at the Issaquah meeting is, this was one of Manfred Zimmermanns early trips to America, and I agreed to meet him at the airport. So I stood out there with a little sign that said Professor Zimmermann. And for years after that he would say, Oh, I just remember how you met me like an angel standing at the head of the stairway at the airport in Seattle. And I drove him out to Issaquah. That was really a long period of time. But I mean, obviously, one has to deal with those sorts of cultural things. LIEBESKIND: I was just going to say, were dealing not only with personalities but with cultural things. The Japanese, the Germans, the traditional German or traditional French. JONES: Thats right. LIEBESKIND: You respect these differences. You cant expect everybody to act like a slap-on-the-back American. JONES: But the thing is, my communication with him -- this particular communication -- it wasnt anything different than anything I had ever written to any other local arrangements chairman over the years. It wasnt even because I wrote the letter, its because I copied it to others, you see -- that was it. But I even did that for a reason, so Im aware of that kind of thing. But anyway, OK, so it was sort of embarrassing, that whole thing, to everybody, because whereas everyone might think Im doing a wonderful job END OF TAPE LOUISA E. JONES INTERVIEW TAPE TWO, SIDE TWO LOUISA JONES: But I really havent had a lot of negatives. There have been a couple of members that I have had slightly sort of harsh words with when they were trying to pull one over -- I mean, the sort of thing that comes up is that a member who is presenting a paper at a Congress, and whos a member of the Association but then who says, well Im here covering the Association for the such-and-such journal so I should get free registration as a press writer or something like that. But thats not even a big confrontation. My response to that is, well, if this is what they need, fine. But I dont particularly like to have to deal with them about that, because you are put on the spot. And there are already enough things that could go wrong with Congresses. The other thing that was unpleasant, and probably one of the really more stressful things, was that the person that we hired for the secretariat for the Adelaide Congress turned out to be -- it wasnt that she wasnt competent -- she certainly understood everything that needed to be done and could organize it and stuff -- but I think she tried to save a little too much money and... JOHN LIEBESKIND: Someone here in this office? JONES: No, this was in Adelaide. And part of -- we didnt have much to select from, because the whole meeting thing in Australia wasnt as established as it is in lots of other places. And there was a lot of stress related to that, a lot. All sorts of shenanigans related to when the hotel rooms were booked and just things that I was powerless to do -- then things getting done on time and being able to find records and all that sort of stuff, which was not what we had ever experienced before. That was a little bit hard. I mean, it came down to the extent that the first day of registration there werent enough people behind the desk. So I went there -- I was there for twelve hours and I took one break -- and I was too embarrassed to wear my nametag because I was afraid people would recognize me as IASP head honcho, administrative honcho, and start screaming at me, because some of them were, you know -- and that was kind of unpleasant. Otherwise, meeting deadlines -- everybody has to meet deadlines, thats not necessarily an unpleasant thing. You hate it, but -- is that the sort of thing that youre asking about? LIEBESKIND: Absolutely. JONES: I havent -- I have had a lot of very positive experiences, and even Ron Melzack said to me once, You know, Louisa, in a way you have almost the ideal job for you. You get to meet a lot of people, you are doing work that you seem to enjoy most of the time, and you have travel and you seem to like doing some traveling and stuff and its not always that situation and I said, yeah, I could be in a lot worse jobs. I could be doing the same kind of work somewhere else and would not enjoy it quite as much. So I must say I havent had too many -- and then the big personal negative, I would say, is that I have gradually over the years probably become a bit of a workaholic and devoted -- I mean, its like almost all my energies and emotions go into that. LIEBESKIND: You hinted before that you were doing something about that. JONES: Well, Im trying to. Theoretically with increasing staff and -- part of what has happened with having an executive assistant is that some of the basic stuff, like taking care of the money and paying the bills and mailing things out and all that sort of stuff, can now be done whether Im there or not. Prior to that, it couldnt. I had to take care of the entire range. I had to make sure there was enough Xerox paper, and I also had to do stuff that had a much higher level of responsibility. And so gradually, these kinds of things -- and thats very good for the Association and theoretically good for me. LIEBESKIND: Have you noticed any difference yet? Are you getting a little more free time or working fewer than sixty hours a week? JONES: Well, no, I havent. As a matter of fact, its gotten worse because of this Congress. We got many more abstracts than we expected for the Congress and higher registration -- took more to prepare books, that sort of stuff, and I did have somebody working part-time who was supposed to be helping more with the editing and putting the books together, but they havent worked out too well. LIEBESKIND: Well, it seems to me part of the problem is that you are such a cheapskate -- you try and save the organization so much money -- I mean, anyone else would say, look, Im not going to work like this, we need to hire somebody else to help. And here the organization is getting richer every year -- weve got a lot of money and theres no reason why we couldnt afford more help for you. JONES: Well, its coming. In point of fact, the organization does not really have a lot of money. When you consider that -- I mean, we dont really have enough -- we feel we have to have reserves that cover at least a two hundred thousand dollar shortfall on a World Congress. I mean, the Congress budget is about a million and a half dollars, you see, and so two hundred thousand dollars shortfall could happen. As far as we know it will not happen this year. And then we feel that we have to have one years operating expenses. Well, those two combined are a million dollars right there and we have only half of that. So we dont have a lot of money and we are launching into this publication series, which will require a substantial amount of seed money. We will use freelance copy editors and free-lance proofreaders and that sort of thing. Because theres another element of this -- you can keep taking on staff, but then you have to get more office space and all of that sort of thing. And some of these things you have to decide which ones you need right there being done and which ones can be done externally. In the age of computers, typesetting somebody can do at home, proofing, all that sort of thing. We will be making some changes in respect to the publications this fall, after the Congress, so Im kind of looking forward to that. The one thing thats hanging over my head is that I have been trying, unsuccessfully because of time constraints, to prepare the full policy and procedures manual, operating procedures. I have stuff drafted... LIEBESKIND: Youve been working on that? JONES: Yeah, Ive been working on it for quite a long time. LIEBESKIND: How far along is that? JONES: Well, part of doing it is to go through all the minutes from all of the meetings where policy has been established, and pulling that out and getting it in. LIEBESKIND: Has what the APS has started doing been of any help to you -- have you seen any of that? JONES: No, I havent seen any of that. No, I dont believe the APS material would be of any help because we have different... LIEBESKIND: No, I mean in terms of... JONES: What you need to write? LIEBESKIND: Yeah. JONES: No, I have collected information about how you do this sort of thing. And that hangs over me. Im concerned about the security of the Association and part of it is by not having everything vested in just one person -- let me show you an example -- is that I wanted desperately to go on one of the balloon flights in Australia, which I could have gone on for free, but I was forbidden to, and I thought it was a joke, but the president and the secretary, Michael Cousins and John Loeser, said, no you cannot do this because you are too valuable to the Association. And they were serious. They said there have been too many accidents with hot air balloons in Australia. Then also recently, also to protect the Association, I have just very recently obtained key man insurance, which, in the event I went poof would give the Association a certain amount of money, a hundred and fifty thousand dollars, something like that. LIEBESKIND: Sort of essentially life insurance. JONES: Its life insurance, but of which the beneficiary is the Association. LIEBESKIND: Thats very interesting. I didnt know such a thing existed. JONES: Right. They call it key person insurance. The money would handle the process -- its not a salary replacement thing for IASP, it would be to help tide things over when you had to recruit somebody new and do all that sort of thing, to protect you. LIEBESKIND: Well, I have a question just on that, its one or two ahead, if you want to -- JONES: Okay. LIEBESKIND: What does the future hold for Louisa Jones in relation to the IASP? What would happen to the IASP if anything happened to you? I mean, what if Hillary Rodham Clinton asked you to come to Washington to help her, or if Manfred Zimmermann asked you to come to Heidelberg to marry him and make him schnitzels? [They laugh]. I thought at this stage of the proceedings we ought to have some levity. What would happen to the IASP, and you have really just answered that? Youre getting this operations, procedures manual going and youve got this key person insurance and so forth. JONES: Of which IASP pays the premium. And actually, and this gets a little bit personal, but being overweight as I am, I almost thought it was a bit of a lark to just go through the whole drill, but they do the lab tests and the blood and they check with your doctor and all this sort of stuff. I qualified for two hundred and fifty thousand dollars at a relatively high ranking. Its a thing where, eighteen months later you can redo your physical and if things like height-weight ratio improves, then they will lower the premium. So thats an objective for me -- its very, I mean, you know, how you should do this for yourself personally, but now heres another reason why you can do it that will benefit somebody else. Its interesting. LIEBESKIND: Well you have this idea that youre overweight, and Ive been told that about myself recently, but I keep telling Julia, Im not overweight, Im just too short for my weight. So I think our objective should be to see if we cant grow a little bit in height. JONES: My brother is six foot five and I weigh more than he does. And hes not particularly skinny. But anyway, the other -- okay, whats the future for me -- Im still in a little bit of a quandary about whether its time for me to take the leap and try to be the publications person and let somebody else come in and take over this other position, where I could still be available on a consultative basis. Now the last time I put any thought into this -- initially, I thought this is what I want to do. LIEBESKIND: Loeser would slash his wrists, if you did any such thing. JONES: Then I thought the other way. Well, I dont know. Howard Fields would be perfectly happy. And I should mention -- I consider one of my personal achievements is being able to work successfully with Howard Fields. LIEBESKIND: He is not an easy man, as Im sure you know. JONES: No. I feel when he says, You really did a good job on this, Louisa, that is high praise. I like him because hes direct and hes very -- I mean, the directness isnt always fun, but its all on the table, and so youve got something to work with and I like that. LIEBESKIND: My only complaint about Howard is I find him moody. JONES: Well, yeah, I know. LIEBESKIND: He can be sarcastic and not so nice, but just as direct and honest and I admire him for that. I like Howard. I like him very much. But hes not... JONES: But hes not easy and so thats why I am particularly pleased that I can... LIEBESKIND: Well, hes done some very important things -- I mean, this whole curriculum thing that he took on. JONES: Yes, the core curriculum. We just got the Norwegians -- who was it, Per Hansson -- theyre going to distribute that book widely within Norway so that they can help with the training things theyre going to do. So theyre buying thirty or forty copies of it or something. And it just keeps going on. See, people use it for review or if somebody is getting into the field, this is what I need to know, and somebody whos in it, they use it for a check list. But I waver back and forth between, should I do the publications or should I just continue in what I am doing? And I think, well why not let somebody else get into the publications and make it their own thing and let me continue with the other thing. And it may be that five years down the road I decide, well somebody else can take over this and I can do something else within IASP, that wouldnt be as lucrative, shall we say, but where I could still, because the thing is, I like doing all kinds of work, and thats maybe why I havent advanced myself sooner. Any kind of work is fine with me. Of all the things Ive ever done, I just like -- you know, its part of life -- work is as essential to life as -- spending time working, its a basic element of life. You spend time with your family... LIEBESKIND: Sigmund Freud said so. JONES: Did he? People who hate work... LIEBESKIND: ...Lieben und Arbeiten, love and work. JONES: Love and work. No, its an element of mankinds life, so you cant make believe its the enemy. When you make believe work is the enemy, you just make your whole life more difficult. It affects everything -- it affects your family, everything. So anyway, I waver back and forth between that. If Hillary Rodham Clinton asked me to come back there, I would have to think about it, but I would probably feel that I was just not dynamic enough and it would be difficult for me to envision what my contributions could be. Im a little bit too low-keyed for the Washington scene, I think. On the other hand, one of the responses that I have had over the years in a number of -- especially dealing with Europeans, and mostly this comes in relation to organizing the Congresses, the people that I have to deal with, that we engage to be our secretary at, and they do a lot of similar work to what I do, and the first time this ever happened was with Ainsley Iggos secretary, Lillian, who was the most professional British secretary you could ever have. When I met her the first time, when I was there in Edinburgh, when he was president -- no, pardon me, it was in preparation for the Edinburgh Congress, which was held in 1981 --when I was leaving she said, Miss Jones -- she was very formal -- I just have to tell you this. When I knew this important woman was coming from America I just had all these images of this woman coming and this and that and this and that, and she said And youre so nice. And I thought, oh my God, shes been reading too many fashion magazines or something, I dont know what. But I have had a very nice, what I would call peer response, where they say, oh we enjoy working with you so much because you know whats involved, you dont come on with airs, you seem willing to do whatever work is required, and its the same with the people in Paris -- the French, you know --they love working with all of us. They love Jean-Marie, they love Ulf, they love working with me. They are already thinking about whats going to happen when the Congress is over, when theyre not going to work with us anymore, because they love it. And you cant knock that. Part of it is because I dont come on strong. As a matter of fact, if someone else is around that comes on stronger than I do, my instinct is to fade. And in a way thats a liability for me -- I should come on stronger, I should have a more forceful appearance, except the number of circumstances in which thats really required of me is so small that why should I change just for those few circumstances. And thats it. So anyway, Im probably not going to Washington D.C. LIEBESKIND: Now, Heidelberg... JONES: If I win a hundred and ten million dollars in the Lottery, Im going to buy myself a refitted Army tugboat and Im going to sail around somewhere. LIEBESKIND: You havent commented on the marriage proposal from Manfred Zimmermann. JONES: Oh that. Well, forget that. Hes too short. Being half German, I dont need to have more German influence in my life. Now were it somebody else, well... LIEBESKIND: Michael Bond, you might not say no to. JONES: Yes I would. LIEBESKIND: I thought he was your special friend. JONES: Friend, thats it, exactly, friend. Friend, yes. LIEBESKIND: You know, weve talked exclusively, really, about the IASP, you in relation to the IASP, which is very appropriate, but you have been extremely involved and responsible in many ways for two other major pain organizations, the APS -- where youve let that go on its merry way, but you were there in at the beginning and were instrumental in bringing that together -- and of course the IPF, so can we spend at least a few minutes talking about the early days of APS and the early days of IPF? What are your recollections? You were talking the other day in the car about the meeting in Chicago and so forth. What do you recall of the original formation of the APS? JONES: Well, I remember that Bert Wolff got a group together and specific people I remember being there are people like, of course Bert, Fred Kerr, Dave Mayer, Bill Willis, yourself, Dr. Bonica, John Loeser. LIEBESKIND: Youre wrong about Dr. Bonica. JONES: He was not there? LIEBESKIND: He was not there. He was in the hospital. JONES: He was there in spirit. LIEBESKIND: Surely he was there in spirit. The codirectors of that meeting were the east and the west and Bert of course represented the east and Ray Fink was Johns emissary to represent the west. JONES: Okay. And I remember this sort of fly-in-fly-out meeting at the OHare Hilton, which was efficient. LIEBESKIND: Do you recall anything of the circumstances -- I dont know how much you were involved -- before then there was a meeting here in Seattle that John Loeser put on of the Western Pain Society, and the proposal was already in the air, coming from Bert and the eastern group, that the east and the west should amalgamate and make an APS, and we, the western group, had to make our independent decision to agree to that, because it meant disaffiliating as a chapter, since it was that we could not be a chapter of the IASP, and the same for the eastern, if the American was to be the chapter. Were you part of that at all? JONES: Yeah, I remember that. LIEBESKIND: I think we had a boat trip, and there was a scientific meeting up here, and then there was the business meeting. JONES: Well, I think there -- it seems to me that circumstances like distance and all of that were taken into consideration. But also the need to establish a unified national force or body. LIEBESKIND: Bonica was of course a driving force for that. JONES: Yes, but I dont really remember a lot of hesitation against it. LIEBESKIND: There was some. JONES: Yes, there was some because again, the regional meetings were useful. And some of it was also, I suspect, that this whole thing -- you even run into it in IASP and everywhere else about whos going to be in control. And the other thing I remember, and this is kind of after the fact or maybe at the time of the meeting, is how -- I can remember that one of my suggestions was that APS set up a secretariat and share offices with IASP, not with me at the head, but just that you have these two groups -- ones got this wing and ones got that wing or whatever, share postal meters and share all that sort of stuff. LIEBESKIND: Bert Wolff didnt like that suggestion at all. JONES: And that was slapped down before I got it out of my mouth, and the reason is because there was this practically paranoia about things being controlled by Seattle. And this of course was not what this was -- this was just talking about an office, not something at the University, and in a way it was detrimental to the fledgling organization that something like that never happened. LIEBESKIND: Bert ran the organization out of his office for a few years, for the first two years. There was that Diane Chen, and she helped some and so forth -- but it was a disaster. JONES: Yes, because everything was being recreated every few years and records werent kept well and it was unfortunate. In a way I felt that it was really unfortunate that others in the group didnt stand up and say, look, this isnt going to be a problem. Because I certainly feel right now that its so important for APS to become a really strong body in the pain field, because the pain field is extending and will continue to extend in the US right now well beyond people who are going to be members of the organization, and they have got to know there is a strong, serious organization there that they can contact. And I think APS is achieving that, because its enjoying a good growth right now and everything. But it puts a little more stress on it now. But itll probably come over LIEBESKIND: I think for a number of years, the formative years of both the APS and the IASP there was a sense of competition between them which probably was needless -- it was probably more in the eye of the beholder than real. JONES: Well, I dont think there was a sense -- There was always concern that APS might just -boom- grow so rapidly that it would affect IASP in a negative way, but only I think because IASP was still in its initial growing phases. Because theres only really a three-year difference between the starting. And that may have been valid at that time, but I dont think it is anymore. I think now APS is construed as more clinically oriented and IASP is more academically oriented, which from the point of view of the national medical scene, thats probably what you need. LIEBESKIND: And its the same when you go from the APS to the level of the five regional chapters that it has... JONES: Then its even more clinical, right. LIEBESKIND: Even more clinical. Well, you need a certain critical mass to make the science work and theres just not enough scientists at a regional level in general; you need the biggest possible grouping. JONES: But the information is filtering down. Because there are still enough people who can synthesize some of this stuff for the locals who attend various things. I will also say about APS that I have felt for many years, and I have suggested it at least once or twice, even once at one of the business meetings, that the presidency should be at least two years and I know that there are pluses and minuses about that, but I think that as the Association gets bigger, that may indeed be the case, unless theres a greater structure to support it, because from my experience in IASP, I think its very hard to get programs, unless you go in running, and you have to be careful about that because it can be very threatening to the outgoing president, if youre doing a whole lot of stuff in the background. LIEBESKIND: Getting ready while youre president-elect. Thats very perceptive, yeah. Thats a good point. Youve got all these great programs but youre not going to start them until youve become president. JONES: Right. LIEBESKIND: I see what youre saying. Nervous in the wings. JONES: Yeah. But anyway -- I was only on the founding board of directors of the American Pain Society. When the first election was held I was not on the ballot, and that was -- I dont believe I was asked to be on the ballot -- and had I been asked I would have declined because I felt that my role at that point was not -- there was nothing more that I could really contribute. I had done what I could. LIEBESKIND: Well, I think you wanted to sort of back off at that point, not get too involved in that. JONES: Well, what sort of was happening was -- its not so much me and IASP -- they see me and Bonica and they see Dr. Bonica trying to control everything -- which was not what was happening, but again one has to consider the players and -- LIEBESKIND: Bonica really had very little to do with the early years of APS. I questioned him about this in Hawaii. JONES: Its all totally administrative. Its just keeping the records straight and all of that. Theres nobody going to do any untoward influence, that I could see, certainly not -- but anyway... LIEBESKIND: What comments do you want to make about the IPF in those early days? There were some strange days. JONES: IPF. Well, we all worked very hard and we had -- I really cant make any comments about IPF because I havent thought about making comments about IPF. I am involved right now in trying to keep it extant. I can tell you I have this much unanswered correspondence for IPF on my desk right now. So Im just buried in that, and I havent really sat back and looked too objectively on it. LIEBESKIND: Well there was some stress and strain there for a period of time that I know you dont handle well, and neither do I handle it well. Maybe this isnt the time or place to discuss it. JONES: I mean, I look at IPF then and now in a positive vein. I hope that we can get the John J. Bonica Fellowship Program eventually funded a little more because, irrespective of where it ends up, in some organization or foundation, I think that its an important reminiscence, shall we say, or important recognition of Dr. Bonica in a different way than a lectureship is because it goes across the generational -- its geared towards the next generation, towards the next John J. Bonica or whatever it is, in a different way than named lectures are. LIEBESKIND: Sort of future-oriented rather than past-oriented. A lecture awards someone who is older and has had a lot of accomplishments. JONES: Right. And I also would somewhat argue that well normally these things dont happen until the person is no longer with us, but I think you and I know that to Dr. Bonica theres something about knowing this while youre still here. I mean, that it seems that thats important to him. Well, I think so, and to someone else it might not be so important, but to him I think it is. No, I really havent -- Im not trying to avoid it, but Im just really not prepared to give this type of discussion about IPF, partially because its a much shorter time period and theres not as much activity going on, and its a different type of activity and so there really isnt a whole lot of the same type of anecdotal stuff -- practically everything weve done is strictly administrative, and that kind of thing. The one thing, and I meant to say this before, certainly the joint IASP-IPF visit to the Pope was a bit of a highlight. LIEBESKIND: I should say. That was an amazing event. JONES: Yes, it was an interesting event, and I think it was special for all of us. Its always intriguing to me as a Catholic how these things seem to mean so much more to people who arent Catholic, you know. LIEBESKIND: Well, yes, it was a very moving experience for this poor Jew. JONES: It was for me too. Especially because when the Pope heard I was from Seattle, he had just been having a go-around -- an archbishop out here was having a go-around with the Vatican and I was astounded to learn that the Pope actually knew about it -- I thought it would have been a much lower level because it was one of those things. LIEBESKIND: What did the Pope say when he first walked into the room and Professor Manni came up to him? JONES: This is a wonderful man, this man saved my life? LIEBESKIND: This is the man who saved my life. JONES: He said it at least two or three times during the whole visit. And this is just -- that impression will always be with me that, no matter what everybody says about the Pope being -- I mean, Catholics, theyre these ultraconservatives and all of this sort of stuff and theyre all mad at him. I mean, they all tell me theyre mad at him, all my married Catholic -- theyre so mad at the Pope and I havent quite figured out why theyre so mad at him, but that was such a touch of humanity. I thought, heres a man who was fighting for his life in a way that we probably werent aware of at the time -- it was just an interesting touch of humanity. And the other thing that I can say about that visit to the Pope is that I had this idea that there is at least one person in the world who is thinking about the whole world in a nonpolitical way. His care is the globe. Who else is there? LIEBESKIND: Mother Teresa. JONES: Yeah, Mother Teresa. And I had that feeling there and it doesnt mean a whole lot except its a glimpse of the possibility. Thats it. LIEBESKIND: Well, Ive got two other questions and theyre just very broad -- I dont know what comment you want to make on them -- I know its getting late and weve been sitting a long time, but... JONES: I have to bake a pie. LIEBESKIND: Well, just see if you can take a quick stab at it. Ill tell you what they both are. I want to ask you, in your opinion who else I should interview and why you would choose those people, and I also want to ask you what you thought of the questions that Ive asked and what advice you have for me about the interview process because, as you know, Im just beginning at this and I want to do better at it. So can you give me the help that I need in both of those domains? I mean, I know youre not a scientist and a physician or whatever, but I have a lot of respect for the opinions that you must have in terms of where the great ideas come from in our field, and thats what Im focusing on, by the way. My concern is, how do we think about pain and who has made us think that way? Its not just the great scientific discovery, but an attitude, a focus on a topic that somebody might have brought about that causes us all now or many of us to think differently about the world of pain than we did before. Thats what Im looking for, kind of an intellectual history. I mean, Noordenbos -- Ill forever regret that I didnt get this idea when he was still alive -- he would have been a fascinating man to have talked to. JONES: Oh, well, gosh. Well, youre going to do Melzack. Are you going to do Pat Wall? LIEBESKIND: Ive already scheduled Pat. JONES: And youve done Cicely Saunders. LIEBESKIND: Im meeting Pat and Dame Cicely Saunders on successive days in early August. I havent written or called Ron Melzack yet but Im going to do it. JONES: Im just sort of thinking down the list of our honorary members, and I wonder about somebody like Peter Nathan or Hans Kosterlitz. LIEBESKIND: Kosterlitz is older than God now, I think. Hes very old. He had an eightieth birthday celebration years ago. He must be eighty-five or six now. JONES: Szentagothai -- we were in Hungary for his eightieth birthday. He was like a spring chicken. LIEBESKIND: Have any contact with Peter Nathan recently? JONES: I get a note from him every so often, but I havent in the past year or two. But surely -- hes such an interesting guy and he would probably be able to -- hes so... LIEBESKIND: Pretty broad thinking. JONES: Yes, I was going to say educated, but broad thinking is what I mean. Hes an intellectual, right. LIEBESKIND: An intellectual, an intelligent man. That would be fascinating. JONES: It might be worth trying to see if theres any possibility of that. He has had a hip replaced and I think hes even had bypass surgery. LIEBESKIND: I would have to make a special trip back because I cant take too much time away. [INTERRUPTION] LIEBESKIND: If John Loeser will go for this task force, then well get other people -- I asked Michael Bond to be on that task force; I think he would be good. Maybe he would interview Peter. Thats a very good idea. JONES: And youve written Janet Travell. LIEBESKIND: How about this interview process? JONES: Well, I think its okay. LIEBESKIND: Needless to say, I didnt ask you the exact same questions I would ask Dr. Fordyce... JONES: Right, because you would be asking him some questions that were more technical, whereas mine are sort of administrative type questions. But I think its okay. LIEBESKIND: Are there any answers that you want to give to questions I havent asked? Are there any things that you would want to say in the context -- remember, now, this is history were making. People a hundred years from now may listen to this tape. What would you want them to know about you or maybe there are things I havent gotten at that you feel are important to add here. JONES: Well, theres nothing in particular about me. LIEBESKIND: But you or your opinions about important things. JONES: Except that I would bring up the subject of talent, which in our society -- you are talented if you are artistic in the sense of painting or music or dance or sculpture, and after that talent is out the window. In the minds of our society you are untalented if you dont do these things. And yet the talents of humanity are in the sort of thing Im doing and that other people are doing -- I obviously have a talent for what Im doing. I cant do these other things. And in every branch, in aspects of science or things -- its not that I begrudge not having a talent for other things -- thats not what Im saying. What I want to point up is that I think its a fault of our society -- and as a result we do not pull these talents out of people who maybe would have the talents I have for this type of organization or whatever the heck it is. But they exist on all levels. I wont say anything more, thats just a thing, its a commentary... LIEBESKIND: Let me say something, and this doesnt have to be the coda of our interview, but let me say that I completely agree with Ron Melzack in the comment that you made that he said to you that this was such a wonderful job for you, this was the perfect job for you. What is a perfect job for someone? Its putting that person in the place where their talents are uniquely applicable and best expressed. And what is the nature of this job that you have, the nature of it, the very essence of this job is its variety, is the fact that it is not a beaten path that you followed. JONES: Thats right, variety is the nature of it. LIEBESKIND: Its not, get out the book, and follow rule one through ten. Its newly inventing, dealing with new situations all the time, and thats exactly what youve done all these years. I dont think any of us, and I say this with complete candor, not to embarrass you, but I dont think any of us involved in the organization can imagine how the IASP would have gotten to where it is today without you. JONES: My family thinks Im just a bumpkin. LIEBESKIND: Well, your family is very much mistaken. I am very proud of my association with you and my feeling of all that you have done. This is not a convenience, my interviewing you, its not because Im up here interviewing Bill Fordyce and John Loeser, as I said to you... END OF TAPE LOUISA E. JONES INTERVIEW TAPE THREE, SIDE ONE JOHN LIEBESKIND: I mean, taking it back a half a step, when I say that Im interested in the great ideas and the great things that have changed the world of pain, I really think that the creation of the IASP was one of the greatest of these -- that it has transformed the field because it created the field -- it brought us together. Youre not a field if youre not communicating to one another, and as you talked about, we get together, we bring neurologists and nurses and pharmacologists and blah blah. I think its extremely important that this has happened and that its happened so successfully. You look at all of the different ramifications -- its like, heres a starting point -- Issaquah or whatever, and then boom-boom-boom. This thing kind of pyramids out to the latest report thats about to come out of the committee on pain in the workplace, and what will be next year, some new report or some new accomplishment. And Louisa, you have been the key to all of this, you really have. Youve made it go, youve made it work, youve made it efficient, youve made it successful -- youve made it happen. And that is a monumental achievement. LOUISA JONES: Well, I know Ive done a lot, but Im not the only one whos done something. We talked about the journal, but there are also a lot of people who have never been president, who have, for example, because weve talked about presidents as well -- some of the committee chairmen who have gotten these various projects together, starting with Harold Merskey. LIEBESKIND: The taxonomy. JONES: It was Dr. Bonicas idea to do this, and even with the ups and downs of all of that, that book is very much in demand to this day, and those contributions -- nothing is a singular effort, is what Im saying. LIEBESKIND: But still, although we all recognize that, some people just stand head and shoulders above some others in terms of their contributions and if you look at the whole story of IASP you can pick a few people. Of course John Bonica, of course Pat Wall, and of course Louisa Jones. Anyone who doesnt recognize that or doesnt recognize the importance of it is just plain wrong and just plain ignorant about these things. JONES: I think that a lot of people do recognize that. Because thats the kind of feedback I get. Members are very kind to me when I write to them, when I talk to them on the phone, when I see them here or there. And to me, thats part of that recognition, because IASP obviously means something important to them. LIEBESKIND: I want to make a contrast between -- you talk about individual members being pleased and so forth -- it makes me think of the organization of the secretariat of the Psychology Department at UCLA. Now that used to be one room and there was one person sitting there. Over the years as the department has grown its gotten larger and larger and theres quite a staff now. Whats happened repeatedly is that one person, a woman whos in charge of the office and has several employees, people working under her, has sequestered herself in a glass room, literally, like an office built within the main office and that has distanced that person and that person has become inaccessible to everybody else. Its like theyve put themselves up on some papal pedestal and you have to kiss their ring. Thats what you havent done. JONES: Well, I havent, no. But its on the verge because of the size and because of the complexity. LIEBESKIND: Well, to some degree that may become inevitable. But you are personally in touch with so many people. We keep coming back to that word -- we used it in the organization for years, the sense of family. Famiglia, you know... JONES: I know what youre saying... LIEBESKIND: And youre the mama. JONES: Sometimes the phone will ring and everybody else is busy and Ill pick it up and Ill do my usual thing and Ill say, This is Louisa. And theyll say Louisa Jones? I said Yes, and they said, Do you answer the phone? And I said, Well, yes, why shouldnt I? And they say, Well, I never expected to get right through to you. And I say [she chuckles]. But I know where theyre coming from and I know this is important. Im not in a situation where I can do that all the time, and so thats part of that. The one thing I want to say about the importance of IASP, taking into consideration the years of contributions of a lot of people, aside from any individual contributions, is IASP has now become a resource for lots of other places. Any of the pharmaceutical companies, for example, you say IASP, they immediately say, oh well, no problem. And that is a sort of having reached a level of real credibility, reliability and everything else, and thats important too. LIEBESKIND: Absolutely. Its the flagship organization of the whole field, the first and biggest and most prestigious. JONES: But you can be big, as we know -- there are other big organizations. LIEBESKIND: Who even claim to be bigger than the IASP. JONES: But that doesnt mean that you would have the respectability or the clean bill of health just to hear your name. And that is an important next step, because it is perceived as representing the high-level work in the field, and then the chapters and so it goes like that too. This I think is important to the Association and its important that the resources of the Association are recognized, because the more they are recognized, the more in demand they are. Our simple little books -- and thats what were here for, and it will just keep going on and that will also help. Part of helping to advance the field is to get more and more of the more common practitioners in all the health professions to pay more attention. I mean, it was intriguing to me -- even my brother, whos a pediatrician -- you talk pain and all he talks about is anesthesiologists. I said, well, yeah, postop pain, but surely you have kids with chronic migraine and chronic abdominal pain, and he said, oh yeah, we do. I said, Well, thats not the anesthesiologists. But its a leap to make that. LIEBESKIND: This has been a wonderful interview -- Im very happy about it. I think its been the best interview Ive been involved in so far. I can even tell you why. Because I feel we have really gotten to the heart of the matter. Its just what I wanted and hoped for. JONES: Well, maybe I can tie a few things together, and also its important to get at least two versions that are identical of the same thing. LIEBESKIND: I just feel that youve been right there. Youve been right here in this microphone. Weve really talked to Louisa Jones and youve been frank and so forth and I think weve covered the things that I wanted you to talk about and weve done it and weve done it well. JONES: Its interesting to me. Its a little bit hard to do. There are so many things to remember. Maybe the parting thought could be the banquet at the Congress in Florence, which was held at a villa outside of Florence, where evidently the locals crashed because they didnt have the ticket collecting going well, and they ran out of food, and some people practically got hysterical and others -- the waiters figured out what to do and brought out tons of wine and those who stayed had a good time and got very snockered. LIEBESKIND: As I recall they did at a certain presidential dinner in Edinburgh. JONES: But the thing I want to make is that there were buses going back gradually towards the end of the evening. Of course I was there being just embarrassed by everything. Finally I got on the bus and there were two sober people on the bus and one of them was not the busdriver. As we wound down these little roads, these stone-walled roads in Tuscany -- and the two of us were sitting together and it was Rolf Nordemaar from Karolinska -- hes a rheumatologist. No, you probably wouldnt know him, hes more on the clinical side. Ever since then we get a Christmas card from him every year because the two of us were like -- oh my God, are we going to see tomorrow or what -- heres these two people who had managed somehow, I dont know how, to not get drunk, and it was just one of those things -- every year I get a Christmas card and you know theres this little twinkle about the bus trip back from the trip to the villa. It was one of those funny little things. LIEBESKIND: I have a picture from that meeting. You know, they were selling pictures. And I have a beautiful picture of Jean-Marie Besson and Giselle dancing. In the background you see Zotterman... JONES: Zotterman in his white linen suit. LIEBESKIND: And Allan Basbaum and Jan Gybels -- you can see them very distinctly. In fact, I have another recollection of Zotterman on the bus to that banquet. I was sitting right across from Zotterman. I didnt know him but I knew who he was, but he didnt know me. I said, Oh, Professor Zotterman, let me introduce myself. I told him my name, that I worked with Madame Fessard -- that was my carte dentree, that was my legitimization, and I said, I wonder if you remember my dear friend and colleague at UCLA named Donald Novin, and Dr. Novin did his postdoc with Lundgren at the Karolinska. He said, Oh, Donald Novin -- yes, he had a very beautiful girlfriend. She was black, you know. Very beautiful. This is what he remembers of Donald Novin. So I went back and told that story to my buddy Don Novin. He was married by this time. Well, okay. Lets go down and make a pie. Thank you very much. JONES: Well, thank you. Its kind of nice to know that you have some contribution to make to that. Obviously Im not an ambitious person, Im a drone in a way, a drone worker, but who is able to -- theres a lot of drone-like work in what I do. LIEBESKIND: Thats not the term I would use. There is for everybody, theres a lot of routine. JONES: But there is a lot of interesting too -- I often used to think -- I was very interested in microbiology, for example, and I maybe would have gone into the sciences, advanced degree, and I think I could have done, but I probably would have been not brilliant at it, I would have been one of the more average people in it. LIEBESKIND: Maybe you would have been like somebody I know who has been very successful in science despite the fact that he isnt very brilliant, because he has good managerial skills. JONES: Now who could that be? But the thing is, I dont think I could have withstood the grant procedure and the professional -- I dont want to call it a dogfight, but sometimes it is -- the professional stress. LIEBESKIND: Well, the testosterone flows, you know. What Julia calls willy-waving -- a lot of willy-waving going on, too much testosterone. JONES: I think that its been suitable for me to be almost entirely my own boss, you see, which is kind of what I am. LIEBESKIND: Thats true for a lot of academics. I feel that way. I mean, we have a Chairman and everything. A lot of academics are pretty much their own boss. Somebody who worked in Dr. Bonicas department wasnt his own boss. JONES: Except for the fact that he was the same with everybody, as long as you were taking your lead and doing a proper checks and balances when you needed to, he wasnt going to bother you. You know, getting stuff done. It was going to be difficult if something was going wrong, but I often think I would probably drive a supervisor nuts. But then you cant take that out of perspective, because Im talking about having done the type of work Ive done for twenty years and that would be a different situation. 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"SystemyMy--@Times New Roman--- O2 v-0 John C. Liebeskind History of Pain Collection              2 vy0   @Times New Roman---  2 0     2 0     2 0   @Times New Roman--- ,2 0 Oral History Interview       2 40    2 y0 with   2 0    2 8-0 Louisa   2 80 E.  2 80 Jones   2 80   ---  2 U0     2 q`0     2 `0   @ Arial--- &2 -0 Ms. Coll. no. 127.     2 0 18   2 0   ---  2 `0     2 `0     2 `0    2   0 Conducted:    2  0 11 July 1993      2 0    2 5 0 Interviewer:       &2 5y0 John C. Liebeskind     2 520     2 Q*0 Duration: ca.       2 Q0 3  2 Q0 .0   2 Q0   2 Q0 hours    2 Q0    2 m[0 Pages:    2 m0 i  2 m0 v  2 m0 ,  2 m0 64   2 m0     2 `0     2 `0     2 `0     2 `0   @Times New Roman---  2 0    82 0 History & Special Collections         2 0 for the    2  0   2 0 Sciences    2 X0    ;2 &  0 UCLA Library Special Collections            2 &'0    .2 >0 Los Angeles, California        2 >0   2 >0 90095   2 >0 -  2 >0 1  2 >0 798   2 >40     2 V0     2 n0    2 G0 1997   2 s0 , revised 2016     2 0   @Times New Roman--- --  00//..,: ՜.+,D՜.+, hp  UCLAH &HOWARD FIELDS INTERVIEW.John C. Liebeskind History of Pain CollectionOral History InterviewwithLouisa E. JonesConducted: 11 July 1993/History & Special Collections for the Sciences!UCLA Library Special CollectionsBiographical SketchInterview History)Topical Outline (Scope and Content Note)Access to the InterviewTerms and Conditions of UseCitation Information/Related Materials in the Liebeskind CollectionQThe reader is referred to the following related materials: Oral history intervieEditorial NoteQThe interview transcript has been annotated -- with notes offset in [square bracAcknowledgmentsQSupport for the John C. Liebeskind History of Pain Collection and its Oral Histo[PHOTO PORTRAIT NEEDED]Louisa E. JonesIASP Founding SecretaryLOUISA E. JONES INTERVIEWTAPE ONE, SIDE ONE Title Headings%HX|_AdHocReviewCycleID_NewReviewCycle_EmailSubject _AuthorEmail_AuthorEmailDisplayName_ReviewingToolsShownOnce @HJones transcript (UCLA John C. Liebeskind History of Pain Collection)rjohnson@library.ucla.eduJohnson, Russell  !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~      !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~Root Entry F6z1Table~9WordDocumentSummaryInformation(DocumentSummaryInformation8CompObjr  F Microsoft Word 97-2003 Document MSWordDocWord.Document.89q